rickair7777

Yes. That was a typo.

rickair7777

In theory, the VA will pay for 60% of SOME, but not all costs. they will not pay for any PPL stuff, and they will only pay for the IR if you are concurrently enrolled in a CPL course.

The problem is that few people other than ex-military do 141 programs, so many schools jack up the price of the 141 training so your out-of-pocket costs are about the same as they would have been for a part 61 program anyway. And the school gets your VA money on top of that...basically it's a ripoff.

If you really want to use your VA benies on flight training, be sure that your hourly costs are the same as for the school's 61 training...there should not be any difference...if there is, it's a predatory scam aimed at veterans.

ToiletDuck

I learned more teaching than I ever did in school and I still have a long ways to go.

Pilotpip

He said he was going to use the VA bennefits for college, and pay for school out-of pocket.

Spongebob

While I am sure this is true, it's not relevant. If it were, you could go straight to the left seat from being a CFI, and it would be a required rating. Everywhere else in the world the airlines take folks off the streets and spend the money to develop them into an airline pilot - to name a few: Cathay Pacific, Singapore, EasyJet (great article about this/them in the current issue of Airliner World). A JAR costs a buttload, but it's paid for by the airlines. In fact, I'd challenge that at least 30% of the folks in flight training in the US are on one of these programs, as the CFI & rental rates are way cheaper in the US even when you include lodging. Almost all the ones going beyond a PPL at the local school our here in Oxnard are. Without that system here, CFI is an efficient way to build hours, but I'm not sure how teaching stalls in a 172 equates to avoiding the jetstream so the passengers don't spill their drinks or diverting for a medical emergency.

Also, most military pilot's don't do an instructor tour, or even have a CFI ticket, but get readily hired. They've proven to be trainable, adaptable and able to execute standardized operations.

What I'm saying, is that while you may be a better pilot, CFI experience will not necessarily make you a better airline pilot. I'd say if that is your goal, get there the fastest way you can afford. ATP et. al. are going to teach you what the airlines want you to know (otherwise their program would fail) and the rest you'll learn while during your 2000+ FO hrs on your way to Captain.

de727ups

"While I am sure this is true, it's not relevant"

I think it is true and it is relevant.

"I'd challenge that at least 30% of the folks in flight training in the US are on one of these programs"

MAPD, RAA's type program, and FSA's direct track are the only three in the US that compare to the European style. So, I'd disagree with your challenge. PanAm, DCA, ATP (for the most part), FSA (CFI track), any four year school, they all get you a CFI and have you instruct for a bit, which is good.

"Also, most military pilot's don't do an instructor tour"

Military is the exception. You can't compare US military training to MAPD. It's like comparing the US Air Force to Mesa Airlines.

"What I'm saying, is that while you may be a better pilot, CFI experience will not necessarily make you a better airline pilot"

In my view, a better pilot makes a better airline pilot. An airline pilot is just a pilot who got hired at an airline. The more experience any pilot has before he hops in a jet, the better. CFI time is good time.

Spongebob

de727ups,

Good Reply!

Clarification on my part -- my 30% comment was that 30% (just a swag, so it's wrong) of the people in the US getting a pilot license are those folks (Europeans, Sings, etc...) sponsored by an overseas airline. At the local school here, everyone in training is on an overseas sponsorship and is not a US citizen. Sorry for the poor wording on my part. I agree that the percentage of US citizens in a similar program is low. Since there is a ready pool of folks here, there is minimal reason for an airline to do it (whereas in Europe/elsewhere the costs are too high).

I agree that flight time is flight time, but I have trouble with the infernal that a successful CFI will be a successful airline pilot or a successful military pilot and vice versa. We all have stories about this - in my case the one guy from my primary class of 12 at VT-27 that got booted was a 2200 hr CFI/banner tow guy, he was by all accounts a great stick, but he could not adapt to flying in a structured environment (NATOPS, which is just the Navy's OPSPECS). All of us with 0 flight time at the start of the program did fine, as we didn't have the private paradigm to break and they taught us what we needed to know (just and example, there are many more folks with prior flight time who do just fine). How many folks do UPS, SWA, FedEx, Cathay, etc. pick up with just CFI time? Not many, so you should jump to the 121 world as fast as one can to build relevant experience, if that is one's goal.

In light of that - if someone is looking to get to the airlines in a shortest amount of time on the GI Bill, it does not make much sense for someone to CFI for 2 years outside of one of those programs, and they'll get hired just the same, or even easier due to the tie-ins/training standards. One is giving up too much seniority and 121 experience to fart around being a CFI just because it's the "noble" thing to do.

If you don't get hired, fine, go instruct at a part 61 school.....

Spongebob

Pilotpip

Spongebob,

I think something that is not mentioned is a difference in culture. Many of the graduates of these ab-intio programs at foriegn airlines are simply gear monkeys, or sit in the seat during non critical phases of flight like cruise. While even here the captain is the final authority, in many Asian cultures it's still considered as wrong to question his choice. As you may be aware this culuture differs greatly from ours.

While the captain is still the final authority (and should be, they have more experience) US carriers rely on much more task-sharing and CRM. The FO is (and should be) a much more integral part of the flight crew than just a gear monkey.

Having said all of that, I think too many people are willing to jump to the first regional that will throw them a bone. However, recent history has taught that the regional isn't just a stepping stone that you'll be done with after a couple years enroute to that major job. It's a long-term stop that may get you to a major after five or six years. I'd much rather start at a place I want to work versus somewhere that I don't want to then make a lateral move later. The only thing you end up doing that is being at the bottom of the seniority list again. Friends that have done this have commented on how much they hated the first company, and how much they hate being on reserve, trying to commute, or spending more money on yet another crashpad. As you know seniority doesn't follow you. Starting at the bottom all over again isn't fun.

de727ups

I don't think putting 300 hour pilots in jets just so they can build time faster is a great idea. Glad it will never be my problem.

Spongebob

Agreed, but I'd say with a robust training program (focused on what's important), you can be a viable FO at 300hrs - military does it every day, every hour. You are just building your time in a different environment, one that more closely matches your job. Though maybe the FO talking the Capt through a turn around a point and stalls in a 7-3 is common?
I totally agree, and once at a regional you need either plan to stay there or come up with a way to break out of the crowd in order to move up, which is hard to do unless you're in the guard, have a good network, etc.

My point, and question really because I don't know, how does 5 years as an MEI compare to 5 years at a regional for getting hired by a "major"?? I proffer that 5 years of 121 time is more valuable for your resume...

That said, you have to enjoy what you do! And if you don't like life at a regional you probably won't like life at a major. Same stuff, more money.