Please help me choose between Mesa or PanAm
12-13-2006 | 04:34 AM
#52
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From: Corporate Pilot
Automation
Others read these posts have the impression that airline pilots actually fly the plane. We wouldn't want them to get the wrong idea would we? I remember how disappointed I was to learn of the ways of airline flying. It is easy to assume that it is like all other forms of aviation when we all know that it is not.
SkyHigh
12-13-2006 | 06:46 AM
#53
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Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
LAff
LA Frequent,
I don't know if you are following this thread anymore but if you hold any illusions that the pilots fly the plane I hope to have dispelled them. Others have made attempts to chip at the fringes of my argument but the truth remains.
The pilots enter the entire dispatch created trip into the computer (FMC) while still at the gate. Climbs, cruise and descent are all calculated and accomplished by the computer. Changes are made en route by typing the new data into the computer and then the aircraft flies the new route or clearance. The flight director alone can be controlled through the heading bug, airspeed window and altitude alerter. On most modern jet planes you don't even have to touch the power levers.
It is true that on occasional sunny days a pilot might get away with hand flying for 10 minutes or so through a few shallow turns, but all of the truly interesting work is done by our friend the FMC. At times a pilot will be able to hand fly an approach on VFR days but even then he is merely serving as a link between the FMC and the flight director since he would be following instruction from the command bars.
In an Airbus they don't have a control yoke at all. The pilots have a small desk in its place. On the side there is a small stick but you are never in direct control of the plane. The pilot inputs requests through the side stick and the computer decides how best to accomplish the task. The side stick is really more like a mouse than a real flight control.
On an average trip the AP goes on at 1000 feet and stays on till below 1000 feet on arrival. The remainder of the time a pilots hands are folded nicely in their lap. There seem to be some companies that foster a better hand flying culture but rest assured that those days are going away. A plane load of people is way to valuable to trust in the hands of they typical line pilot. Any real hands on work is saved for the simulator every six months to a year.
Skyhigh
I don't know if you are following this thread anymore but if you hold any illusions that the pilots fly the plane I hope to have dispelled them. Others have made attempts to chip at the fringes of my argument but the truth remains.
The pilots enter the entire dispatch created trip into the computer (FMC) while still at the gate. Climbs, cruise and descent are all calculated and accomplished by the computer. Changes are made en route by typing the new data into the computer and then the aircraft flies the new route or clearance. The flight director alone can be controlled through the heading bug, airspeed window and altitude alerter. On most modern jet planes you don't even have to touch the power levers.
It is true that on occasional sunny days a pilot might get away with hand flying for 10 minutes or so through a few shallow turns, but all of the truly interesting work is done by our friend the FMC. At times a pilot will be able to hand fly an approach on VFR days but even then he is merely serving as a link between the FMC and the flight director since he would be following instruction from the command bars.
In an Airbus they don't have a control yoke at all. The pilots have a small desk in its place. On the side there is a small stick but you are never in direct control of the plane. The pilot inputs requests through the side stick and the computer decides how best to accomplish the task. The side stick is really more like a mouse than a real flight control.
On an average trip the AP goes on at 1000 feet and stays on till below 1000 feet on arrival. The remainder of the time a pilots hands are folded nicely in their lap. There seem to be some companies that foster a better hand flying culture but rest assured that those days are going away. A plane load of people is way to valuable to trust in the hands of they typical line pilot. Any real hands on work is saved for the simulator every six months to a year.
Skyhigh
12-13-2006 | 06:56 AM
#54
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,923
Likes: 697
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
You can fly with out them, yes. I am sure that for most it would be a near emergency situation and that maintenance would move heaven and earth to insure that they worked before any departure.
Others read these posts have the impression that airline pilots actually fly the plane. We wouldn't want them to get the wrong idea would we? I remember how disappointed I was to learn of the ways of airline flying. It is easy to assume that it is like all other forms of aviation when we all know that it is not.
SkyHigh
Others read these posts have the impression that airline pilots actually fly the plane. We wouldn't want them to get the wrong idea would we? I remember how disappointed I was to learn of the ways of airline flying. It is easy to assume that it is like all other forms of aviation when we all know that it is not.
SkyHigh
At mesa, they used to MEL the FMS on a regular basis. Then they would make you fly raw nav data...but maybe that was just mesa.
Plus the 200's didn't have GP$, so you went raw data at low altitudes whenever the box couldn't find enough VORs.
Had the FMS fail on departure out of OAK...charts were EVERYWHERE
12-13-2006 | 07:03 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
LA Frequent,
I don't know if you are following this thread anymore but if you hold any illusions that the pilots fly the plane I hope to have dispelled them. Others have made attempts to chip at the fringes of my argument but the truth remains.
The pilots enter the entire dispatch created trip into the computer (FMC) while still at the gate. Climbs, cruise and descent are all calculated and accomplished by the computer. Changes are made en route by typing the new data into the computer and then the aircraft flies the new route or clearance. The flight director alone can be controlled through the heading bug, airspeed window and altitude alerter. On most modern jet planes you don't even have to touch the power levers.
It is true that on occasional sunny days a pilot might get away with hand flying for 10 minutes or so through a few shallow turns, but all of the truly interesting work is done by our friend the FMC. At times a pilot will be able to hand fly an approach on VFR days but even then he is merely serving as a link between the FMC and the flight director since he would be following instruction from the command bars.
In an Airbus they don't have a control yoke at all. The pilots have a small desk in its place. On the side there is a small stick but you are never in direct control of the plane. The pilot inputs requests through the side stick and the computer decides how best to accomplish the task. The side stick is really more like a mouse than a real flight control.
On an average trip the AP goes on at 1000 feet and stays on till below 1000 feet on arrival. The remainder of the time a pilots hands are folded nicely in their lap. There seem to be some companies that foster a better hand flying culture but rest assured that those days are going away. A plane load of people is way to valuable to trust in the hands of they typical line pilot. Any real hands on work is saved for the simulator every six months to a year.
Skyhigh
I don't know if you are following this thread anymore but if you hold any illusions that the pilots fly the plane I hope to have dispelled them. Others have made attempts to chip at the fringes of my argument but the truth remains.
The pilots enter the entire dispatch created trip into the computer (FMC) while still at the gate. Climbs, cruise and descent are all calculated and accomplished by the computer. Changes are made en route by typing the new data into the computer and then the aircraft flies the new route or clearance. The flight director alone can be controlled through the heading bug, airspeed window and altitude alerter. On most modern jet planes you don't even have to touch the power levers.
It is true that on occasional sunny days a pilot might get away with hand flying for 10 minutes or so through a few shallow turns, but all of the truly interesting work is done by our friend the FMC. At times a pilot will be able to hand fly an approach on VFR days but even then he is merely serving as a link between the FMC and the flight director since he would be following instruction from the command bars.
In an Airbus they don't have a control yoke at all. The pilots have a small desk in its place. On the side there is a small stick but you are never in direct control of the plane. The pilot inputs requests through the side stick and the computer decides how best to accomplish the task. The side stick is really more like a mouse than a real flight control.
On an average trip the AP goes on at 1000 feet and stays on till below 1000 feet on arrival. The remainder of the time a pilots hands are folded nicely in their lap. There seem to be some companies that foster a better hand flying culture but rest assured that those days are going away. A plane load of people is way to valuable to trust in the hands of they typical line pilot. Any real hands on work is saved for the simulator every six months to a year.
Skyhigh
-LAFF
12-13-2006 | 07:14 AM
#56
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
Future
Soon all the mechanical failures and system faults will be reduced to zero. At that time the only weak link left will be the organic matter that occupies the front seats. The only logical course of action to a higher level of safety will be to continue to minimise pilot influence on the actual control of the plane.
The next generation of aircraft will be interesting to read about but discouraging to fly, opps I mean manage... 
Skyhigh
The next generation of aircraft will be interesting to read about but discouraging to fly, opps
I mean manage... Skyhigh
12-13-2006 | 07:20 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
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Finally Sky High says something we all agree on.
A few of Sky high's errors.....
Can't operate an FMS airplane without an autopilot.........Incorrect
Can't dispatch an FMS equiped with an inoperable FMS................Incorrect
Can't dispatch a Modern FMS equiped Airliner without an operable autopilot.....Incorrect
Most Airlines won't allow you to hand Fly.......................incorrect
Most Airlines won't dispatch an aircraft with an inop auto pilot.....Inncorrect
Most Capts won't let you Hand fly...............................Incorrect
During Training/ Evaluation on Modern Glass/FMS aircraft, a pilot must demonstrate a thorough working knowledge of the automation, however, a Pilot must also demosnstrate "Pilot" skills........i.e. Hand Flown Skills........
The CAPT is further (and more importantly )evaluated on his/her Headwork or better stated his/her decision making and CRM skills (something Sky High apparently never had to do)
Other non-autopilot i.e. handflown required manuevers
Rejected take off at max gross weight just prioir to v1........
V1 cuts.........(severe engine failure right after v1)
2 Eng outs on 3 or 4 Eng aircraft........
ILS eng out to 200 feet Mins........Hand flown
In close go arounds..........Hand flown
Max Crosswind landings.........Hand flown
Windshear escape Recovery.......Hand flown
GPWS esacape manuvers......... Hand flown
Stall recovery................Hand flown
No Flap/reduced flap landings........Hand flown
Lets not forget the thousands of Takeoffs and Landings every day by Airliners that are always Hand flown.......
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 12-13-2006 at 08:09 AM.
12-13-2006 | 08:07 AM
#58
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
Thanks Redeye
Finally Sky High says something we all agree on.
Can't operate an FMS airplane without an autopilot.........Incorrect
Can't operate an FMS with an inoperable FMS................Incorrect
Can't dispatch a Modern Airliner without an operable autopilot.....Incorrect
Most Airlines won't allow you to hand Fly.......................incorrect
Most Capts won't let you Hand fly...............................Incorrect
During Training/ Evaluation on Modern Glass/FMS aircraft, a pilot must demonstrate a thorough working knowledge of the automation, however, a Pilot must also demosnstrate "Pilot" skills........i.e. Hand Flown Skills........
The CAPT is further evaluated on his/her Headwork or better stated his/her decision making and CRM skills (something Sky High apparently never had to do)
Other non-autopilot required manuevers
Rejected take off at max gross weight just prioir to v1
V1 cuts.........
2 Eng outs on 3 or 4 Eng aircraft........Hand flown to 200 feet Mins
Max Crosswind landings.........Hand flown
Windshear escape Recovery.......Hand flown
GPWS esacape manuvers......... Hand flown
Stall recovery................Hand flown
No Flap/reduced flap landings........
Lets not forget the thousands of Takeoffs and Landings every day by Airliners that are always Hand flown.......
Can't operate an FMS airplane without an autopilot.........Incorrect
Can't operate an FMS with an inoperable FMS................Incorrect
Can't dispatch a Modern Airliner without an operable autopilot.....Incorrect
Most Airlines won't allow you to hand Fly.......................incorrect
Most Capts won't let you Hand fly...............................Incorrect
During Training/ Evaluation on Modern Glass/FMS aircraft, a pilot must demonstrate a thorough working knowledge of the automation, however, a Pilot must also demosnstrate "Pilot" skills........i.e. Hand Flown Skills........
The CAPT is further evaluated on his/her Headwork or better stated his/her decision making and CRM skills (something Sky High apparently never had to do)
Other non-autopilot required manuevers
Rejected take off at max gross weight just prioir to v1
V1 cuts.........
2 Eng outs on 3 or 4 Eng aircraft........Hand flown to 200 feet Mins
Max Crosswind landings.........Hand flown
Windshear escape Recovery.......Hand flown
GPWS esacape manuvers......... Hand flown
Stall recovery................Hand flown
No Flap/reduced flap landings........
Lets not forget the thousands of Takeoffs and Landings every day by Airliners that are always Hand flown.......
Yes, you get to do a lot of that stuff every six months in the simulator at your pro-check or during initial training. On the line most of your time is spent reading Details Magazine while the FMC and AP flies the plane.
Some companies are more lenient about hand flying. I am sure that cargo companies are the best but many do not allow it as much and most crews are happiest if it remains positively engaged. As a long haul cargo guy I can't imagine that you get the opportunity to even make many landings a month let alone any real hand flying.
I am sure that if your company tried to dispatch a plane to you for a long trip overseas with an inop AP you would be just fine with it.
As far as "head work" goes an airline captain must demonstrate that they can remember the proper procedures or know which checklist to use. If that fails they can call dispatch or maintenance control and ask them what to do. I have experience with CRM. I use to teach it at Horizon Air. I understand that you are comfortable with deluding yourself into the thought that you actually accomplish something but please don't pollute others. I don't wish to damage your self esteem but maybe you should rent a piper seneca and take an IFR flight to remind yourself of how real pilots use to fly planes?
At best the airlines need two pilots to do the job of one, half awake, night piston cargo pilot.
SkyHigh
12-13-2006 | 08:19 AM
#59
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
12-13-2006 | 08:28 AM
#60
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From: Corporate Pilot
Years Ago
Years ago I was a CFI in Anchorage Alaska. A common occurrence was to have a long haul airline pilots come in to the FBO in request of a rental checkout. Often with a few days off during a long trip they would attempt to rent a small plane to take in the sights.
I will never forget how badly a JAL pilots leg began to shake when I asked him to accomplish a series of regular stalls. I was constantly shocked at how horribly nonproficient and disorganised those guys were. Co-workers would share incredible stories of incompetence and complete lack of basic pilot skills and knowledge that these guys constantly demonstrated. Perhaps two in ten were able to complete a piper warrior check out in less than ten hours. Most gave up entirely. I had one Lufthansa pilot who put in 15 hours and I still couldn't release him to solo in the pattern. One UAL captain began to shout out commands like, flaps up!, Max power!. You can imagine the look of horror he gave when I told him that he had to accomplish those tasks himself if he expected to complete the check out.
I am sure that at one time these guys knew how to fly but years in a cushy automated modern airliner eroded those skills right out from under them. They all had the same assumption that they were still pilots but in reality they were managing computers that actually flew the plane.
Don't get me wrong, at one time it was my life's goal to become a soft, arrogant, deluded, pillow handed major airline pilot. There is nothing wrong with a modern fully automated plane. It is safer, easier and takes almost no brain power to do the job. I just feel that it is important to point out that it isn't really flying as compared to flying a Cessna 172 or as a single pilot IFR night piston twin guy. If you really love the challenge of hand flying then you will be sorely disappointed by the airlines.
SkyHigh
I will never forget how badly a JAL pilots leg began to shake when I asked him to accomplish a series of regular stalls. I was constantly shocked at how horribly nonproficient and disorganised those guys were. Co-workers would share incredible stories of incompetence and complete lack of basic pilot skills and knowledge that these guys constantly demonstrated. Perhaps two in ten were able to complete a piper warrior check out in less than ten hours. Most gave up entirely. I had one Lufthansa pilot who put in 15 hours and I still couldn't release him to solo in the pattern. One UAL captain began to shout out commands like, flaps up!, Max power!. You can imagine the look of horror he gave when I told him that he had to accomplish those tasks himself if he expected to complete the check out.
I am sure that at one time these guys knew how to fly but years in a cushy automated modern airliner eroded those skills right out from under them. They all had the same assumption that they were still pilots but in reality they were managing computers that actually flew the plane.
Don't get me wrong, at one time it was my life's goal to become a soft, arrogant, deluded, pillow handed major airline pilot. There is nothing wrong with a modern fully automated plane. It is safer, easier and takes almost no brain power to do the job. I just feel that it is important to point out that it isn't really flying as compared to flying a Cessna 172 or as a single pilot IFR night piston twin guy. If you really love the challenge of hand flying then you will be sorely disappointed by the airlines.
SkyHigh
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