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Old 12-03-2013, 05:00 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
I was based at Pease for 8 years in a Guard KC135. I went TDY to Bitburg many times, back in the mid 1980's, to refuel you guys. At least half our missions there were cancelled because the ceilings were too low for the fighters to fly... We did a lot of sight seeing on all those no-fly days.
Many missions are canceled because of weather in the working areas - not because you can't takeoff and land. You have to know this with your experience. are you just trying to stir the pot?
As to who does what, and what creates a better IP, have you been through a Civilian Instructor Course? Or are you just repeating what they told you in UPT? It's a lot more than just a few hours on top of the PPL.
Nope - at the end of my college training program I decided NOT to go for the CFI/II/MEI certs because I didn't think I was ready to instruct. Most of my instructors were newly minted CFIs. When I moved on to insotructors that actually had some real world experience the difference in instruction was remarkable.

When I was a kid my Dad was CFI'ng every day, and flying mail runs in a twin Beach at night. He used to say, "Given enough bananas you could teach a monkey to fly." The Civilian program allows anyone with enough money to keep coming back and getting more lessons, no matter how lazy they are about studying and working on their skills.

I feel that in both worlds, the Civilian mill, vs. Miltiary, they would BOTH produce much better pilots if they both used IP's with some real world experiece, vs. 250hr. FAIPs and Mill grads. As I said in my UPT critique, send them out to get some flying experience for 3 years, then bring them back to instruct.
Amen.
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:11 AM
  #32  
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Sorry for the confusion USMC, my reply you quoted above was meant for Adler Driver.
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:51 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
Sorry for the confusion USMC, my reply you quoted above was meant for Adler Driver.
No confusion. I piggy-backed on that reply to Alder.

Flyboy.
The time to start though is now. The track is long and can be tedious.
It is doubtful that someone will hold your hand along the way.
General guidance is the norm. Specifics will most likely be left up to you (which takes determination). Be sure that you are talking to the right people. Check out those other sources previously mentioned.
Be smart about your parallel training track if that is the path you chose.
Financial responsibility starts early, and the effects of mismanagementare costly and long lasting.
Good luck in your decision.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:45 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
At least half our missions there were cancelled because the ceilings were too low for the fighters to fly...

I feel that the two programs, the Civilian Pilot Mill, and the Military, would BOTH produce much better pilots if they both used IP's with some real world experiece, vs. 250hr. FAIPs and Pilot Mill grads. As I said in my UPT critique, send them out to get some flying experience for 3 years, then bring them back to instruct.
As a product of the UPT of old, you have some solo time in the T-38. I'm sure you can extrapolate that experience to hand flying a single seat, 160 knot approach in a fighter down to basic CAT-1 mins off round dials with no HUD (F-15C HUD isn't used for approaches). Our home-drome ILS approaches allowed us to go down to 200-1/2. Without the benefit of an auto-pilot or pilot monitoring, that's low enough for me. Scoff that if you'd like - maybe you're just better at an ILS than me. Our USMC friend has a point also: not much use in taking off and setting yourself up for flying an approach to mins when all the working areas are socked in too.

As to your other point on experienced IPs - it makes total sense and I couldn't agree more. It was always nice having the guest help IP in UPT with some real world experience fly a sortie with you. We have guys teaching at FedEx that have made the school house a career. They rarely fly the line and their level of practical experience is inadequate to really allow them to offer credible instruction.
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
As a product of the UPT of old, you have some solo time in the T-38. I'm sure you can extrapolate that experience to hand flying a single seat, 160 knot approach in a fighter down to basic CAT-1 mins off round dials with no HUD (F-15C HUD isn't used for approaches). Our home-drome ILS approaches allowed us to go down to 200-1/2. Without the benefit of an auto-pilot or pilot monitoring, that's low enough for me. Scoff that if you'd like - maybe you're just better at an ILS than me. Our USMC friend has a point also: not much use in taking off and setting yourself up for flying an approach to mins when all the working areas are socked in too.

As to your other point on experienced IPs - it makes total sense and I couldn't agree more. It was always nice having the guest help IP in UPT with some real world experience fly a sortie with you. We have guys teaching at FedEx that have made the school house a career. They rarely fly the line and their level of practical experience is inadequate to really allow them to offer credible instruction.

I did love flying the White Rocket, who doesn't?

For a few days I even considered giving up my Guard Tanker slot for an Active Duty T38 IP slot, which was offered to me, but sanity prevailed, and I went home to never fly inverted or super sonic again in a KC 135: Airline Lead In, a year later I was hired at Delta.

When I was in the T37 program my AD buddies would bust my nutz saying, "Why do you want to go fly a TANKER?? You will NEVER go past 30 degrees of bank again, and you'll never pull 6 G's in a Tanker!"

I would reply with, "That Tanker is going to get my a job at Delta, and then I'll pull 150 G's, and then I'll buy a Pitts Special that will do things you clowns can only dream about!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hna5pv4lCOM

My table mate going through UPT was a Reserve guy, going to an F4 in the Mako's, (Homestead, FL.) he had a ton of civilian time before going to UPT as I did. Together we had over 8,000 hours when we showed up. We got a FAIP with 200 in West Texas. BUT...my Reserve buddy had already build 3 Pitts Specials, AND he had won the Advanced Category National Championship, in a Pitts that he and his Dad (a Delta L10-11 Capt.) built, when he was 21! Curtis Pitts lived just down the road from them in Homestead.

He would fly his ILS's in the T38 Inverted! It would only fly for 30 seconds upside down before it ran out of gas, so he would hack his clock, roll it upside down for 25 seconds, roll it right side up for 5 seconds, roll it upside down again.

I kid you not. I was his wingman, I saw it with my own eyes. The Base Commander used to come down to our squadron just to fly with him. He taught me more than any of the IP's I had. He did this rolling 360 with 4 aileron rolls in it, blew our IP's mind! He taught me how to fly formation and how to do a lot better acro.

Last edited by Timbo; 12-03-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:15 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
My table mate going through UPT was a Reserve guy, going to an F4 in the Mako's, (Homestead, FL.)

He would fly his ILS's in the T38 Inverted! It would only fly for 30 seconds upside down before it ran out of gas, so he would hack his clock, roll it upside down for 25 seconds, roll it right side up for 5 seconds, roll it upside down again.
Funny coincidence. My class leader was as a Mako as well. Going from WSO in the F-4 to F-16 pilot as they made the transition. I give him most of the credit for steering me toward the Eagle assignment at Bitburg.

You can't really be attempting to paint flying an ILS inverted as something impressive, can you? BPS (bored pilot syndrome) has killed many pilots over the years.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:39 PM
  #37  
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I was impressed when I saw him do it! It was day VFR at UPT, so he was just screwing around, but he was very calculated in everything he did, not BPS. Point is, he could do it. You ever tried it? When I asked him how he learned to fly formation (he soled form on his first form ride) he said they used to fly 8 Pitts Specials from MIA up to Fon Du Lac (Wisconsin) for the National Aerobatic Championship every July.

The 4 on the inside of the diamond would all be right side up, the 4 on the outside would all fly on the wing, inverted, for two hours! Then they would have to land and fuel up, but they would fly the pattern to land with lead right side up, two inverted, three right side up, four inverted, etc. He said the first time he flew it, he didn't roll right side up until about 100 feet up...then he got into a PIO and had to go around!
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:57 PM
  #38  
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Default Awesome!

So when do I start my inverted approaches?
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:01 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Flyboyxc91 View Post
So when do I start my inverted approaches?
You might want to go get some Acro lessons in a Pitts S2B or Extra 300L first, then give it a go.
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:30 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Flyboyxc91 View Post
So when do I start my inverted approaches?

Here's a place to get started; https://www.iac.org/legacy/recreational-aerobatics

Just find an acro instructor in your area then go have fun!
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