DreamToFlyy

First of all cause of the breakup is still under investigation and results won't be official for a while, so it could have been not related to the flight school. Second if you are going to use something like this to make a point maybe you should have the decency to have respect for the recently deceased pilots trying to embrace a career in aviation. Two people died, that is what is important here, and if it is ATP related I am sure they will make sure it won't happen again.

CBreezy

That's correct. It is still under investigation. The facts are this: it was an ATP airplane and it broke apart in flight killing two pilots. I'm not making a point. I'm just stating facts. You are the one who is defending a flight school against facts. I didn't say I thought the school was responsible. I didn't say anything about their maintenance. I made a pun and then posted the FACT that an ATP airline crashed. Believe it or not, this is worthy of the attention of anyone reading about ATP.

DreamToFlyy

I was not defending ATP Flight School, the fact that this happened makes me second guess them as my choice this May. I really hope they were not responsible and if they were they better fix their standards. Part of the reason I like them is that it seems it is the quickest way (if you are focused and work hard still effective and safe) to get to an airline, which is much safer then general aviation.

chicwithwings

You didn't smear at all, just inform. I didn't see that report and it is important. It doesn't mean that all of their equipment and systems are defunct, but is a good reminder to consider all aspects of a company before going all in

Aviator89

Its not a gauranteed airline job, at least not anymore. A guy with a pulse, 1500 hours and ATP minimums (the certificate, not the school) can get a job anywhere right now, regional wise. Compass and skywest maybe a bit more difficult.
nor is the cfi route. Your answer= brainwash. If it looks to good to be true it is.
Many of their grads do instruct at ATP after graduating, but you also work in the call center there for a month or two until a spot at one of the locations opens up for you. But now with the new ATP rule for regional FO's i would expect less attrition, and less overall students. But a cfi job with students already lined up is worth the wait. I had to gain my own list of clients working at a local fbo. And it wasnt multi engine time.

Reputable regionals? Lol is there one? Some are better than others, but they all start at pretty laughable pay for the job. Some like compass and skywest are certainly better than others. But still no major/legacy.
I mean they all have a reputation, but....

Aviator89

You can also choose the ATP locations that have the newer piper seminoles. Just look on the website.
If this is a structural thing due to age/airframe time, its not really atp's fault. But as a customer, one should consider most of their fleet are the older seminoles. The one i flew had well over 12,000 hours total, in fact i think it was 200 hours from its life limit. CRG jan 2013.

I highly doubt this was a MX screw up. But could also see two pilots who were unfamiliar with ice try and decend faster to warmer altitudes, and accidentally overspeed the airplane. Anyone know bad the weather was that day? I know someone mentioned possible ice at 4-5k earlier just judging by surface temps. But that hardly is the whole story...

DreamToFlyy

What would you suggest then, I cannot do the military route due to a medical condition which allows me to have a First Class but no military. I know they don't garuntee jobs just interviews, and I have talked to 4 current and former students and they all had COEs and had not heard of any other ATP student who hasn't gotten one. I do not believe I am brainwashed. I have done a lot of research and weighed the positives and negatives. I am starting out I want to know what you guys think my best options are. I am not trying to negatively argue or defend anyone, just trying to figure everything out.

CFI Guy

Feel free to contact me as well whenever you can. I was in the exact same boat as you in 2007 at age 30. I also spent 10+ years in mortgage banking, sales, underwriting, correspondent, you name it.

I can help you get all your ratings for less money just as fast. You just have to be committed. I went to ATP and while it can be a good program there are too many variables. First issue is if you are stuck with a bad instructor you are done. I had some great instructors (people who have been there for a while) and some terrible ones. I've given several thousand hours of dual instruction so looking back now I realize how much I didn't learn correctly or not at all.

Second problem is they will force you to take checkrides whether you are ready or not. They threatened to kick me from the program on more than one occasion when I voiced my opinion on the matter. Although I will take responsibility for my actions if ever asked in an interview I failed two checkrides due to not adequately being prepared. When I asked for more time the VP called me with threats. Real professional there.

Third issue is the program is not as good as it was. Housing used to be included but now it's additional. When I finished the program I had something like 260 multi engine hours. Now I understand it's around 150? Also what they don't tell you is a lot of those hours are "safety pilot time". Essentially you and your cross country partner are sharing the time but both logging it. However do you think ATP gives you a break? They charge you and your partner full boat so at $350/hr each you end up paying $700/hr to fly a seminole!

ATP is nice on the phone but as soon as they cash your check they sing a different tune. If you for any reason leave the program early they will refund you the money after they nickel, dime, pro-rate, bend-you-over until there is nothing left. It happened to a few people I went to school with.

As far as their instructor program it was slave labor, 7 days a week for almost no money. The problem now is there is a backlog of instructors waiting for a job. It's like a big ponzi scam that is based on new people entering the program so recent instructor grads can teach them. If no one signs up and someone finishes the program there suddenly is no guarantee. Not as many people are going through the program and with the 1500hr rule in effect they are stuck instructing longer than before. You will likely sit in their call center for months (after waiting for months) before getting an instructor spot. Also I understand there is pressure to give instructors the boot for trivial reasons to make room for new ones.

I instructed there for a short time and "dispatch" practically forced you to fly in all kinds of terrible weather. Flying through t-storms without on board radar is not fun in a 172. One day they forced me to fly an old 172 to do time building with a student. It had this old pitot tube design (oldest plane in the fleet) and whenever you flew in weather all the flight instruments would freeze (simultaneous pitot tube / static blockage). The head of maintenance told me he wouldn't fly it himself in weather. Well another day I got assigned this plane again and sure enough there was weather. I told dispatch I didn't want to fly the plane and then I got a call from the VP threatening me again that I better fly "or else". I'd be interested to see what happened with this recent seminole crash. They WILL force you to fly through weather, ice, you name it. Oh and your "cross countries" consist of flying their broken airplanes from podunk locations to maintenance facilities. Just thinking of how much my partner and I paid makes me sick. If I could do it all over again I'd go the FBO route and actually have fun and go places where I wanted to visit.

The reality is no one cares where you got your rating. The piece of plastic in your pocket will look no different. The regionals are so desperate for pilots as soon as you meet ATP minimums I guarantee getting an interview won't be an issue except for maybe Compass airlines.

DreamToFlyy

So then what is the best course of action to get into aviation as quick and effectively as possible, since I cannot go the military route?

Aviator89

The benifit of going to ATP is getting a good deal of multi engine time, all your ratings, plus the instuctor certificates in a very short amount if time. Any conditional offer is just a bonus. And sure one could say "they all get them" since all the cfi's move on from there. The way the regional world is right now, anyone with the time will get called for an interview assuming not too many skeletons in the closet.

Maybe you are not being brainwashed, but dont expect to have job the day you get your CFI, or be a regional FO the second you hit 1500 just because you went to ATP. It doesnt take much for them to make it look like they have a legal obligation to find you a job at ATP or elsewhere. Because they dont. The conditional offers they have, placards on the wall from airlines showing an "agreement", is all a marketing ploy. You have just as much chance of getting a job at a regional, or cargo carrier regardless of where you went to school.
In fact, some people frown on ATP, and people who do the fast track programs. It is a pilot mill afterall. Drinking from the firehose type training.

My biggest problem with them, and why i did not do my primary through commercial and initial cfi training with them is if you cannot pass all your checkrides wiyhin the 250-260hours they budget for you, you have to pay an astronomical 400+ extra per hour to practice. Same goes for after failing any ride. The training they provide isnt bad, but if you cant keep up you fall behind bad. With you eating the bill.

The best benifit from ATP is that if you do the fast track program, and eventually get a CFi job with them is they provide you the students. Most CFI jobs like at an fbo, or flight club heavily relies on the cfi networking to get more students. You wont need to do that at ATP.

Just keep in mind no matter where you go, there is no free ticket in this world. With the new ATP 1500 rule for airlines, if you got the hours they will most likely be calling for interviews. Back when it was 250, going to ATP, doing the jet training, all the multi time etc. was a huge benifit. But thats just not the case anymore. The regionals dont care where you went to school. More than min. multi time is a plus, but for the most part. If you have 1500 hours, they just dont care.