Typhoonpilot

Skyone is okay , I'll forgive him for defending Fox news



TP

Skyone

Good gosh Readback, lighten up and loosen the seat belt a bit. But I believe it was you my friend who denigrated a portion of the population. Not anyone else on this thread until you brought up your cutesy little quip. Can dish it out, but can't take it...typical. Now back on topic, please.

Non of this was on ALPA's radar several years ago. They didn't give a rat's a** about ME carriers or any of the others. Interesting timing that DALPA, arguably ALPA's biggest contributor, was being run at with an independent union. Now follow this......also there was the uncertainty of what the TWA lawsuit award was to be. Estimates of close to over 100 mil were in the air. No one was going to pay an assessment to National to make up for their lack of representation in the TWA lawsuit.

So ALPA had to find some big bad villain...ME airlines, to keep all in the fold. You see, only through ALPA's PAC could there be protection from these evil doers. Only ALPA could save the US airlines.

The timing is beautiful. Coincidence? Maybe, but the timing of all of ALPAs rants, petitions, etc. came just prior to the TWA award and the possibility of losing the DAL pilots.

Answer this? Did, in years past, ALPA or DAL or UAL or anybody ever and I mean ever care that they were up against British, Lufthansa, Austrian, and SkyTeam members Aeroflot, Air France, Ailitalia, KLM, Saudi, Czech, and other Asian airlines? All of whom were either fully or partially government owned at one time or another. Never. What about a level playing field then?

But EK runs one flight from DXB to MXP to JFK and the "world is coming to an end". DAL has been doing similar, at some point or another, through STR, AMS, CDG, MAD and now in the Asian field.

Every airline gets its decade "in the sun". Some can repeat it, most don't. The playing field levels itself in most all instances. It may take awhile, but it does happen.

Skyone

Thanks TP, but you tell me......Rachael Madow or Megyn Kelly? Just sayin'........

globalexpress

That's not true at all. ALPA has been discussing this possibility for years now. In fact, Woerth came to one of our council meetings many years ago and this was one of the topics he discussed. Obviously at that time no one knew the details (who/when) as no one can predict the future, but as a union guy who very much pays attention, the potential has always been there, and ALPA has pointed the potential threat out. Now it's manifesting itself.

Well, ALPA is the only entity that I know of that is representing airline pilots' interests in government. That takes money. Since ALPA can't use dues money for that sort of stuff, they ask that pilots contribute to the ALPA PAC. It's hard to fight ME airlines that are opening soccer fields and hospital wings in DC without money of our own. Unfortunately, that is how our system works.

I'm pretty sure UAL and DAL have made fusses about state owned airlines. I think one of them was making a fuss (for example) about Air India many years ago, but there were so few flights that there was no political traction. I think that's been the case in general when complaints were made. Not sure when the airlines you list were no longer state owned (perhaps you could provide dates for each one since you're making the argument?), but I don't believe any of those airlines had 100's of widebody aircraft on order worth 100's of billions of dollars.

It's because EK is one of the manifestations of things that are about to cause us (US airline pilots) possibly a lot of hurt. The playing field may level itself someday, true. I guess the concern is what happens between now and then. Should US airline pilots fight, or just roll over and accept the pain (loss of lucrative jobs, pay cuts, loss of job security) until that field levels....if it ever does.

Skyone

GE, I read you are agreeing with me in many respects. Woerth mentioning gov owned airlines does not equate to their full on press these days. In 34 years of receiving Airline Pilot, I had never seen EVERY issue full of basic ignorant ravings about the ME airlines. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Don't you see the thread....none of this started until the threat of an independent union at DAL and the possibility of the union going bankrupt due to the possible TWA award. Would you have paid an assessment to keep the union solvent because of their malfeasance? I understand the need for PACs and was a supporter of such in the past, but never did I ever see a push like this. Not for Lorenzo, Bscale, Scope, Pension Terminations, LCCs, merger policy, etc. You tell me, what has been a bigger detriment to your career, the above issues (which ALPA IMO did very little, through the PAC or otherwise) or three ME airlines and possibly Turkish? Where was the angst, like now against Norwegian, when DAL (after Pan Am) had FAs from India and Warsaw and now AA has them from S. America? Clean one's own act up before going the protectionist route.

ALPA treads very lightly around their major dues payers' alliance members. Where is the justification of DAL doing fly throughs in the EU and Asia when DAL, ALPA et al, are lamenting the ONE flight EK has. BTW it will probably lose this flight because now Etihad owns around 49% of Ailitalia and their courts are looking into EK's previous Italian approval of the route.

This has been beaten to death on other threads, especially by the Borg (DAL) pilots. I don't believe I am defending the ME or gov owned airlines, just have to shake my head at the hypocrisy of ALPA the legacy airlines new focus.

When I see the legacies shedding their alliances with these same airlines, and when ALPA really does something as a national union to protect its members.......well when pigs fly.

Sounds like the typical US airline career since deregulation. You forgot to mention loss of pensions.

globalexpress

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyone

GE, I read you are agreeing with me in many respects. Woerth mentioning gov owned airlines does not equate to their full on press these days. In 34 years of receiving Airline Pilot, I had never seen EVERY issue full of basic ignorant ravings about the ME airlines. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

I'll have to admit that I haven't read Airline Pilot in a long time. However, you complain below that ALPA hasn't done enough concerning a variety of issues, but they're *****in' up a storm about a perceived threat of US airline pilots NOW and you don't like that, either? OK, so they haven't done enough in the past but they're apparently doing a lot now and that's not good?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyone

Don't you see the thread....none of this started until the threat of an independent union at DAL and the possibility of the union going bankrupt due to the possible TWA award. Would you have paid an assessment to keep the union solvent because of their malfeasance?

Nope, I’m not that cynical. I also read the TWA case in its entirety as posted by the TWA pilots and didn’t read about all this "ALPA malfeasance" IMO. But that’s another thread on its own. Sorry, don’t buy the argument that ALPA only cares about Norwegian, for example, because they’re afraid that they might lose Delta, if that’s the point you’re trying to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyone

I understand the need for PACs and was a supporter of such in the past, but never did I ever see a push like this. Not for Lorenzo, Bscale, Scope, Pension Terminations, LCCs, merger policy, etc. You tell me, what has been a bigger detriment to your career, the above issues (which ALPA IMO did very little, through the PAC or otherwise) or three ME airlines and possibly Turkish? Where was the angst, like now against Norwegian, when DAL (after Pan Am) had FAs from India and Warsaw and now AA has them from S. America? Clean one's own act up before going the protectionist route.

I see “flags of convenience” as a much bigger threat to an airline pilot’s career than any of the above items you mention. Those items you list are a potential detriment to a pilot’s career. Flags of convenience, cabotage, state supported airlines, etc., could outright kill a US pilot’s career. Which do you think is a bigger threat?

And ALPA did “very little” about those issues you list? Really? Did CAL/EAL ALPA not go on strike against Lorenzo once or twice or more? For examples, did UAL ALPA not go on strike in ’85 against a B Scale? Isn't a strike pretty much the most powerful a tool a union has to fight? Did DALPA and UAL ALPA not fight against the cancellation of their pensions in court, but unfortunately lose but at least get something for their pilots (a bond payout)? Again, I suspect there is some cynicism on your part. Just because ALPA didn’t always win doesn’t mean that they didn’t try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyone

ALPA treads very lightly around their major dues payers' alliance members. Where is the justification of DAL doing fly throughs in the EU and Asia when DAL, ALPA et al, are lamenting the ONE flight EK has. BTW it will probably lose this flight because now Etihad owns around 49% of Ailitalia and their courts are looking into EK's previous Italian approval of the route.

I guess because DAL isn’t state supported and there is the belief that the ME carriers are to some extent? Maybe because they see this ONE flight as the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent, and since they’re trying to protect US airline pilots’ professions they’re more concerned about THAT ONE flight (and the future implication of that ONE flight) and not DAL’s negotiated/purchased rights to fly within the EU and Asia?

Certainly you’re not arguing that ALPA should be against DAL flying within the EU and Asia with whatever negotiated/purchased rights they have to do so, when such flights provide US airline pilots jobs, are you? Aren’t you complaining that ALPA hasn’t done enough for airline pilots, but now you argue that they should take a stance that would lead to a DECREASE in good paying, airline pilot jobs in order to not appear hypocritical? If UAL legally PURCHASED its rights, for example, for inter-Asia flights from Pan Am, should ALPA come out against those flights, too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyone

When I see the legacies shedding their alliances with these same airlines, and when ALPA really does something as a national union to protect its members.......well when pigs fly.

Sounds like the typical US airline career since deregulation. You forgot to mention loss of pensions.

Again, the cynicism. You’re writing a lot of words about how ALPA is fighting the ME carriers because they are a perceived threat to US airline pilots, but then you imply that ALPA really doesn’t do anything as a national union to protect its members. Well, which is it? Because Eastern Airlines failed or ALPA got kicked off the property at CAL in ’83 doesn’t mean they didn’t fight or have its members interests at heart. Because legacy carriers lost their pensions or had them frozen doesn’t mean ALPA didn’t fight against that, either. We will NEVER win every battle, but just because ALPA lost or doesn’t fight the way YOU think they should have doesn’t mean they’re not trying to protect their members.

Skyone

GE, you make some sound points. I don't agree, but your arguments in theory are right. And probably a discussion about ALPA's effectiveness belongs under another subject heading.

My major point is....throughout a 25 year ALPA career and being a representative and being on several national committees and chairmanship of committees at the carrier, I NEVER saw National do anything like they are now. The pilots that have struck in the past made the sacrifice, but it was usually local. Perhaps ALPA has finally awakened and will attempt to protect all members. But the cynic in me believes otherwise. Just like welcoming back the strike breakers at EAL and CAL into the fold. Can I get all my assessment money back from the 80s?

But let's not even attempt to justify how ALPA "protected" the pensions of retired pilots from UAL, USA, and DAL. Crickets, brother, crickets. Ask Moak about how he protected the pensions at DAL when he was MEC chair.

So GE, no fight for me these days and appreciate the fire in your belly about what potentially might affect your career. Just keep one eye open WRT new found union chest beating.

globalexpress

Well, you have far more "in depth" ALPA experience than I do. I'm just calling it as I see it from my little corner of the airlines. I've experienced much career loss, but ALPA wasn't the cause, nor did I believe there was much they could do about it, even if it was a perfectly run organization.

There's not really a fire in my belly. I'm just a realist. There are severe limitations as to what a union (ALPA or otherwise) can and cannot do. I believe that most airline pilots have unrealistic expectations as to what ALPA (or any union) can accomplish for them. ALPA is certainly an IMPERFECT entity, but then again, every single organization that I belong to, whether it's my church, my HOA, my PTA, or my union. Despite those perceived blemishes, I'm better off with all of them.

Frankly, I doubt ALPA will be able to stop the ME carriers, import/export bank funding of aircraft, and the eventual invasion of "flag of convenience" airlines like Norwegian and their eventual clones. There's too much money at stake, and we airline pilots are just not big enough to stop the tide. We might be able to slow it or influence aspects of the above, but that's likely about it. Especially when such a large % of airline pilots don't have a clue as to what's going on, don't contribute to the PAC, and hate the only entity (ALPA) that is putting up any sort of fight.

I just hope I can get out before the inevitable happens and that young people entering the profession know what they're getting in to. Things might look drastically different 10 years from now.

Typhoonpilot

The hope of a level playing field is one of the things that is paralyzing U.S. airline management and the unions to stand by and watch as their market share gets eroded.

There is no such thing as a level playing field in a global business. How can there be? What international business fields that you know of have truly level playing fields?

The rhetoric coming our of ALPA is simplistic in it's understanding of the world. They try to compare what is happening to the maritime industry. Anybody who makes that quip should do a little research into the true cause of the downfall of the U.S. shipping industry. Learn what open commission, closed commission, shipping act of 1916, national percentage requirements, etc are before even trying to make comparisons to the airline industry.

The only good comparison that can be made is that the U.S. shipping industry thought they would be protected by past monopolistic practices and failed to change with the times.

That is exactly what ALPA and U.S. airline management are doing today.

I'd love to see the U.S. majors stay the world leaders in size and have some of the best compensation and benefits in the world. That isn't going to happen under a protectionist strategy.



Typhoonpilot

globalexpress

OK, well, since you seem to know so much about the failure of the US shipping industry and ALPA apparently doesn't have a clue, why don't you explain to all of us what you believe caused its downfall here in the States? Don't be afraid to include plenty of detail, including the concepts used above in your post, so all us "simplistic" ALPA pilots can figure out the parallels on our own? I'm always interested in listening to an educated opinion.

Also, could you explain how the unions and US airline are "paralyzed" when it comes to these matters of flags of convenience and state subsidized airlines possibly encroaching US markets?