Shindo

Oh the horror being given the choice to be part of a union or not.

WelcomeToBen

That's how they sell it. The reality is that these laws completely neuter the influence of labor unions. If the majority of a labor group for votes to opt for union representation, is it that crazy of an idea to require all the members of said work force to become members and pay dues? If they don't want to work for a union shop, then they can go and seek out a career at a non union shop. Funny thing is, the union shops tend to be the most desirable places to work with the best wages and benefits.

GogglesPisano

There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

(But if you want to work at a decent carrier with better pay and benefits, you need to pay your fair share to maintain that. No free-riders. Airline pilots don't make what they do because of the all-hallowed free market alone.)

Delphin

While he was signing the coal miner EO he referenced his meeting with airline execs and said that there were a bunch of regulations holding back airlines, killing jobs, etc... does anybody know which laws he was referencing?

mainlineAF

Yes. Cabotage and the lack of universal open skies agreements. Look for efforts to kill them in the near future.

C130driver

If Cabotage does come, wouldn't US airlines be able to do intra national flying in other countries? For example, city to city in China? They could even do TDYs for pilots to live in china fly for a month come back for a month off, for instance. Am I off the mark here?

Half wing

US majors get their strength from the feed in the USA. There is no feed or US brand loyalty in foreign countries. Seats would be hard to fill.

Wingdeagle

Hi Goggles, I am first time poster so please be nice :-).

I don't like to post, but feel the need to address the "temp worker" points you seem to be too familiar with.

First of all I, like so many think NAI is a flag of convenience and needs to be stopped before it harms the US pilot market, which for itself is unique in the world (not a bad thing).

By unique I mean, the way the pilot market works in the US is not the way it works in the rest of the world. Like everything else, it has it's good and bad, strengths and weaknesses. We can discuss the pros and cons, but that's a different topic.

I am a so called "temp worker", or a contractor or whatever you call it.

There are thousands of us scattered around the world, flying on good contracts and less good ones. Many of us fly for very respected foreign airlines, compensating for regional pilot shortages, making tons of money (therefore keeping up the high standard of pay) and have tons of time off (4 months vacation for me). So it's not all that bad.

I would like to address every point you made one by one if I may:

Japanese legacies:

A very famous Japanese legacy ANA is running an outfit called "Air Japan", which flies under ANA colors. Most pilots are foreigners. The pay and the general terms of employment are among the best in the world. Yet, Air Japan (as far as I know) is a non union division of ANA and their pilots are contracted through agencies.

Short term contracts: sure, if someone's willing to go for it. Do "long term" contracts in the US protect you from being furloughed ? Contracts are nothing but a worthless piece of paper when it comes to job stability. Union or not.

Unions: some pilots see them necessary, some do not. All about the individual preference. Goods and bads about having a union or not having one. I used to be 150% union, but also think that the current model needs a serious overhaul. Many pilots who do not think they are necessary, do quite well without them and still make tons of money and have careers. All depends where you are and who you work for.

Training bonds: yup ! Started in the US, Frontier is asking for one.

DEC's: necessary in many countries outside US. There is a big worldwide shortage of experienced Captains and many F/O's simply don't have the required hours, so these companies fill the shortages with DEC's. On the other hand, the United States is the only place in the world, where a Captain with 20+ years of experience and five digit numbers in his/her log book can be bumped back to the right seat simply based on date of hire. Oh the famous seniority system. Like it, great, don't like it, carry on (I did).

Working for an "agency": Did it for many years. Pay was on time or early, great benefits like health insurance (100 bucks a month covered my entire family), stood behind me when there were some grey clouds in the sky.
As always, depends on which "agency" you are with, it could be good or plain hell. On the side note: "contract pilots" are "free agents", so nothing wrong with an agency taking care of them (they do make profits of course). Like in sports.

No career positions: depends on the airline. I personally know quite a few guys who started as F/Os at my previous airline and are now type rating instructors and examiners with the same company. Some started on narrow bodies and are now in the left seat of a wide body. So this simply does not apply to all foreign carriers hiring "contractors".

Loyalty ? Are you kidding me ? Name me one airline with "loyalty". If the economy tankers tomorrow, the majors will not hesitate to put people on the street and take away their pensions, as history has shown. There is no loyalty in the airline business world and this applies to ANY airline, US or foreign.

Now you may ask me what all this has to do with "NAI" ? Pretty much nothing, like your example of "temp worker". It's a completely different topic.

Cheers :-)

Wingdeagle

[QUOTE=GogglesPisano;2302958]There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

No, most of them are not located in Miami, but scattered all over the world and fly passengers. They do not pay union dues, but sacrifice in many different ways (long commutes and keeping the pay scales on a very high level). Freeeddddooommm to come and go as you wish and to accept or decline contracts on individual basis: yup. But it's all a trade off. Some things work better for some than others. Check out my post 128.

Please don't pick at the guys flying cargo out of Miami. Many of them are heck of aviator, but perhaps for one reason or other never had a chance at the dream job you maybe having. Perhaps some just do not interview well, but can fly the heck out of an aircraft, some may never have the right connections or people to help them to get to a major. Some choose ACMI, some fly for small airlines, some go overseas. These people do not harm you or your airline. They do what's best for them and try to put food on the table just like you do.

The majors are doing great right now and I hope it will last for the next 100 years. But we all know how this industry works. You never know: today you are cozy at a legacy, tomorrow you may on the street crying over your lost pension looking for ways to pay your mortgage.

Cheers :-)

Cheers :-)

Wingdeagle

[QUOTE=Wingdeagle;2304670][QUOTE=GogglesPisano;2302958]There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

No, most of them are not located in Miami, but scattered all over the world and fly passengers. They do not pay union dues, but sacrifice in many different ways (long commutes and keeping the pay scales on a very high level). Freeeddddooommm to come and go as you wish and to accept or decline contracts on individual basis: yup. But it's all a trade off. Some things work better for some than others. Check out my post 128.

Please don't pick on the guys flying cargo out of Miami. Many of them are heck of aviators, but perhaps for one reason or other never had a chance at the dream job you may be having. Perhaps some just do not interview well, but can fly the heck out of an aircraft, some may never have the right connections or people to help them to get to a major. Some choose ACMI, some fly for small airlines, some go overseas. These people do not harm you or your airline. They do what's best for them and try to put food on the table just like you do.

The majors are doing great right now and I hope it will last for the next 100 years. But we all know how this industry works. You never know: today you are cozy at a legacy, tomorrow you may on the street crying over your lost pension looking for ways to pay your mortgage.

Cheers :-)