flyguy37

CS is a good gig. But myself and about 8 others this month alone have left to go to NJ if that tells you anything. Try for NJ first but if doesnt work out then try CS.

9999

What should that tell us? Be specific please.

With CS you don't have to start behind 3000 pilots. You have a smaller fractional with alot of growth potential. I am told the people working there are great to deal with and the pay is not too far off of NetJets. You have new airplanes and are owned by Cessna, who in turn is owned by Textron.

I don't see any negatives there. I suspect you would make captain quicker at CS than you would NetJets as well. Please let us know what you know?

If it is because of the union at NetJets that is making you move then I guess you can keep it. I am not a fan of unions, particularly if the company (CS) is doing so well without it.

I know CS is making changes for the positive to compete with NJ...that is a no brainer. I also know that the pay raises CS has is a direct result of what NetJets union got them, BUT before that pay raise for NetJets, CS was higher paying than NJ and also had 26 domiciles to NetJets 5....correct?

Not trying to sound like an advocate for either. Just trying to get clarification on the generalities of your statement "..if that tells you anything." To be to the point (the military side of me), what is it that sucks so bad to make you want to leave for NetJets and sit junior to 3000 other pilots?

Thanks

TimSmith

I am at NJ and I don't know the specifics of why he left CS, but it is the union. We have enforceable work rules, CS has guidelines that are "flexible." We have a grievance process, CS has a suggestion box. We have strict pay and duty rules, CS doesn't. We have three different schedules, CS has 1. NJ requires you to be in your base airport city by midnight the first day of duty, CS requires you to live within 120 miles (or was that minutes?) of your base airport, no exceptions. Those are just a few differences. CS is a great place to be. Most pilots know what management will do if they can (screw the labor,) so they prefer representation. When your flight manager at CS asks you to do something in the "grey" area assuring you it is legal, threatens you with discipilary action if you don't do it, and you are afraid the FAA may pursue the matter if you did it, you want a union rep yet? Unions can be evil, it is the pilot group's responsibility to hold the union accountable. It is the union's duty to hold management accountable and treat the pilot fairly. Without them, management screws you when they want. Read the history of aviation labor. Management gets unions because they deserve each other.

Learflyer

Nothing! That's the funny part. it's all internet, word of mouth, and monkey see, monkey do. I guess the contract is appealing?

flyguy37

Ok. I will try to answer the questions in a semi brief manner.

Pay: On the surface the 7/7 pay schedules look very similar to each other but there are huge differences in compensation. The largest being that while training at NJ you are on the 18 day pay at NJ which is substanially higher. You can choose to stay on that schedule as well but that is another paragraph. There is no soft money (extra pay) at CS unless you do OT. NJ has extra pay for early starts, long duty days, long periods of standby, in addition to extra pay for late returns home and holiday pay. All this soft money adds up to an extra 10 percent give or take which further divides the 7/7 pay. Also the next biggest factor is the free insurance at NJ while family coverage at CS is 400 bucks and goes up a lot each year. That is 4800 bucks alone so now the difference in first year pay between the 2 companies is about 12 grand Add in the fact you dont use as much of your per diem at NJ because of crew meals that could be a few thousand more.

Vacations and Schedules: Having done 7 and 7 for a few years now I have come to appreciate the flexibility needed in my life. With CS you get 1 week of vacation first 5 years then 2 from then on. With NJ you start with 2 then get 3 after 5 then 4 after 10 years. This is a big deal when you want to have a good qol and really need to be off for something. Also with just 7/7 schedule (which CS has decided to stick with exclusively) you have very little flexibility. You can't get shorter trips or you cant try to bid weekends off like you can at NJ. 7 and 7 is fine when the they fall on the right weeks but when you miss your kids birthdays you will wish you could have maybe had the chance to bid off.

Job Security: Now I am not one who thinks NJ is untouchable in a bad economy just because they are owned by BH but they are a profitable company, something CS has never been and will probably not be for a few more years if ever. I feel over a 25 year career I have a better chance of keeping my job with NJ versus a much more unstable CS. Also CS has no backlog of customers like NJ. CS is well below their sales goals for this year in fact. Hence them getting rid of the CJ1s and some of the bravos. NJ may have 3000 pilots but they are hiring 400 a year for the next few years while CS may be hiring less than 40 over the next 2 years. Lets face it. Upgrades are going to be long at either place so it makes sense to go to the one with the best overall job outlook and compensation.

A huge factor that those who have never done it (especially military) is the lack of dispatch at CS. PICs are pretty much on their own when it comes to flight planning and covering their butts while you get a little help at NJ. When things go bad this can be the difference between keeping your job or not.

I don't care much about the union except it is very nice to have a set of rules that cannot be broken without recourse. CS mgmt is notorious for constantly changing policies to fit their given situation.

And Learflyer you are just bitter because NJ turned you down and you think just because you worked for FLOPs you have some sort of special right to a job. I have spoken with over 10 guys who were former CS pilots and now work at NJ and they have all agreed that the difference between CS and NJ is night and day and none of them (even the CS captain that left for NJ) has regretted it.

SevereClear

I'm sorry - but you're information is severely skewed. That's nowhere near the reason that they are ridding themselves of those 2 particular models.

Those models are older a/c within their fleet and simply do not complete the mission as satisfactorily as the other a/c that they offer (CJ3, XLS, Sov). Back when they just flew east of the Mississippi River, the King Airs, CJ1s and Bravos were perfect for that mission. With expanded service areas, they simply did not do the customers, companies, and pilots any good (those companies that still use them). The Bravo is still a great plane, just getting dated within all Fracs' fleets.

To speculate that they sold them due to low sales is simply misinformation that needs to be taken with a LARGE grain of salt when reading internet posts like this.

CE750

Starting with CS in August on the Sovereign... it was my #1 choice between NJ, CS and XO (the rest weren't even considered).. I like it on for many reasons, not the lest of which is before there were any unions on any property, CS paid better and treated their folks better than NJ.. NJ's hands were forced by a union, where as there is no drum beat for a union (that I know of) at CS.. so the managers are responsive and treat their people well... their turnover is low and they are backed by Cessna and Textron, no small players..

I can't see working at NJ as being a bad thing, but I just prefer CS.

pilotgolfer

When did you first apply and how long ago did you interview??

CE750

Applied day after SX shut down, April 8th... Called Monday last week for Phone interview #1, then 3 days later for Phone Interview #2... lastly interview earlier this week, and then call for offer 2 hours after walking out of their office.

pilotgolfer

Congrats on the job.

I did a phone interview with Tom on the 11th but haven't heard a word since. Whats the 2nd phone interview like? Was it same line of questions as the first phone call? Did they mention when the next possible class was after August?

and who is SX...I don't recognize the identifier.

Thanks for the info!