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Will Net Jets survive?

Old 11-21-2008, 07:08 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by HIREME
For others, it's a headache they'd rather pay someone else to take care of.
Indeed...and depending on the annual utilization, they'll pay a hefty premium to not have the headache. That's a business decision they'll have to make though; some companies simply don't want to be in the airplane business, but want the advantages of it.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:26 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP View Post
Indeed...and depending on the annual utilization, they'll pay a hefty premium to not have the headache. That's a business decision they'll have to make though; some companies simply don't want to be in the airplane business, but want the advantages of it.
I have no idea what a fractional membership costs in comparison to operating your own flight department so I'm surprised by the information you provided. Thanks for the insight.

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Old 11-21-2008, 08:56 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by 9999 View Post
Very interesting thread. Do any of the NetJet pilots posting in this thread feel there might be a little 'FAT' to cut? What I mean is, you guys get 4 crew meals per day wether you eat them or not....correct? I have also read that it is very easy to get overtime for this or that....all union mandated correct? The point I am trying to make is United was the same way prior to 9-11. They were the biggest on the block and had the best union contract as well. EVERYONE wanted to fly for United....we all know where they are now.

What are the similarities with the union contract at NetJets in this day and age....if any? I am asking this because no one else seems to be getting to the point. To me, based on reading the threads posted by the NetJets pilots on this board and others, there seems to be alot of 'FAT' in the company, and things are slowing down. I can provide links to these comments by NetJets pilots if need be. Will the union budge if needed.....or are they like the UAW?

This is going to be a very interesting couple years indeed. Nothing but best wishes for everyone. I certainly hope the worm turns.

Ahhhh, the fact that NJA has a market leading contract and United HAD one is about the only similarity between the two. United caved into its pilots' demands and gave them nearly everything they were looking for. NJA actually approached the union looking to increase the productivity of its pilots through scheduling modifications. The only real "FAT" at the company involves inefficient scheduling and long ferry trips, and both of those have gotten a lot better lately. Overtime is nearly non-existent now due to the slowdown and crew food is barely worth reviewing; btw, we get 3 crew meals a day, beyond that we need to call the company to get more.
This thread is rather ridiculous and holds little water. The truth of the matter is every aviation company out there is going to face some tough decisions in this gloomy market, whether it be furloughs, lay-offs, downsizing, or cutting costs, none are immune. Putting NJA at the front of the line-up would imply that just about every company is likely to fail. A few things to remember: NJA generates revenue even when the planes don't fly, and we are backed by billions of dollars worth of capital thanks to Berkshire Hathaway. If any company can weather a storm, this looks like the one. Peace out.
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:55 AM
  #34  
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Interesting Blueridger, thanks for the reply.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:08 PM
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My guess is that if the company comes looking for concessions, it will be told by the union to pound sand until they can show us the money they throw away at a crazy rate with poor scheduling practices is way reduced. Even then any changes in one place will cost them something somewhere else like the last IBB. The union here has done it's best not to make the same mistakes that ALPA did and giving away anything is probably not going to happen here. If we need to furlough, so be it. It will suck for those of us who are on the street, but at least a good job would be waiting when the recall comes. There is a reason why so many furloughed mainline pilots didn't return when the recalls came. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. This economy is about the biggest bucking bronco I've ever seen and I just hope as many as possible can hang on for the ride.
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Old 11-22-2008, 01:50 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post
Thats what's beautiful about NetJets business plan. If I have enough money to purchase a share in any jet...do you really think I care whether Jet A is $2 or $7? NJ's customers aren't like the people who bought more house than they could afford, I bet most could buy a whole jet if they really needed to.

I don't think Netjets is going anywhere soon, but don't kid yourself - they are also the kind of people who have millions, I mean had millions in the stock market. We are on the edge of a very deep and painful reccession.

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Last edited by Scoop; 11-23-2008 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:47 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by 9999 View Post
Very interesting thread. Do any of the NetJet pilots posting in this thread feel there might be a little 'FAT' to cut?
Of course. Every company has some. Our biggest "fat" to trim isn't our crew expenses, but rather our empty ferry flights, for which the owners aren't charged, and the cost of charter sell-offs if we can't meet demand. Both numbers are down [i]dramatically[i] over even a year ago, as we get more efficient.

What I mean is, you guys get 4 crew meals per day wether you eat them or not....correct?
No, not correct. We can order up to 4 in a day if needed. (3 can be ordered through an automated Blackberry application; the 4th requires an e-mail or phone call, presumably to discourage it, but it's available if needed. It's very rare, but if I get inedible or very small meal, I may do it.) If I get a hotel breakfast, I typically only order 2 for the day.

I have also read that it is very easy to get overtime for this or that....all union mandated correct?
No, not correct -- all negotiated between the company and the union. Overtime occurs three main ways: Duty days longer than 12 hours, duty before 8am on the very first day of a tour, and after many hours of duty at an airport with no plane or no complete crew. That's it. If I'm on duty longer than 12 hours, it's because we're flying and making money.

Things are slower right now, and as a result, I haven't seen overtime in months. Overtime is entirely within the company's control, and is a tool they use to save money (by not selling off a flight to a charter operator).


The pay and workrules are a negotiation, as I said, and many items in the contract are benefits for the company, not for the pilot group. For example, among other changes to our optional 18-day schedule, the company can now schedule an 8-day tour once per bid, which is something they couldn't do before. More scheduling flexibility was something the company gained in exchange for some of the things we gained.

The point I am trying to make is United was the same way prior to 9-11.
Our union and ALPA are so far apart in philosophy, you really can't compare them. We work for our own interests, of course, but we work with the company, not against it.


Will the union budge if needed.....or are they like the UAW?
We already have "budged." Both parties agreed to renegotiate our contract well before the expiration of our 2005 contract, because both sides saw improvements they needed. The pilots had issues like basing, pay, and scope that they wanted addressed. The company wanted more scheduling flexibility and some other things.

It worked. Overtime and extra duty days were down well before this economic downturn, specifically because of the scheduling flexibility we gave the company. They're now able to better utilize the crews and aircraft specifically because we agreed to "budge." We didn't have to renegotiate until 2010, but we agreed because it was in our mutual best interests. That's how we operate.
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:10 PM
  #38  
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Wow, excellent reply. Many thanks to you for taking the time to post it.
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:34 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR View Post
Actually I would want to now why they AREN'T using a fractional instead of spending all that extra money on their own fully funded flight department. I understand that they need quick access and time is money and most of the fracs can have that plane to you by the time you make it to the airport to board it seems. Then if you need global services there are some that can still provide that. I guess the reason probably lies in the tax laws and other such complicate matters which I can not even begin to understand. Btw - didn't all of the big three get scolded for the same thing?

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Most large companys do use fractionals also. Someone above stated 200 hrs a year as the cutoff for buying your own jet. I saw the chart showing 400 hr/yr and 500 was just barely worth buying your own. That was 4 years ago so the number might have changed. Really it doesn't matter what the exact number is. Large companys have their own flight dept and use fractionals for "supplemental lift" on a regular basis. I've been to quite a few Forture 500 hangars dropping or picking up pax for meetings. Sometimes I get the feeling their pilots don't want us there.
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Most large companys do use fractionals also. Someone above stated 200 hrs a year as the cutoff for buying your own jet. I saw the chart showing 400 hr/yr and 500 was just barely worth buying your own. That was 4 years ago so the number might have changed. Really it doesn't matter what the exact number is. Large companys have their own flight dept and use fractionals for "supplemental lift" on a regular basis. I've been to quite a few Forture 500 hangars dropping or picking up pax for meetings. Sometimes I get the feeling their pilots don't want us there.
Thanks Salty Dog. Good explanation. When I wrote the above I forgot that I had read about the flight hour cut-off along the way. I'm just beginning to understand the fractional business, but I certainly just guessed that owning your own flight department must be enormously expensive with all of the accompanying costs. Truthfully I still can't say that I understand all the factors that figure into the flight hour cut-off when a fractional becomes more expensive than owning your own plane - but I'm learning
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