Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-09-2018, 06:28 AM
#3021
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by flycrj200
It's very disturbing to see people fighting, speculating, and calling each other names. We do not have any information to make an informed decision or even speculate. To all of you guys hiding behind a screen name and telling everyone how dumb they are, quit it. You are the dumb ones. Only the minority of Frontier pilots post on this forum. The outcome of the contract is going to surprise. Now go on FLICA and spend the next t weeks bidding and tweaking your bid in monthly open time because line bidding is so ********ing great.
11-09-2018, 06:31 AM
#3022
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/CA
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by Crown
can y'all explain to a DL guy why you believe PBS is concessionary? I'm not disagreeing, it's just something I've never heard before
If the Company wants it, then let them pay for it. We all know that if WE want something, we have to pay for it.
A good example is our hotel layover language. We routinely have 20+ hour layovers in some great cities (SEA, LAX, IND .... the list goes on) and we are stuck at a hotel at the airport or some industrial park. As a group, we would like to be in a downtown location. Think the company will give us this language for ‘free’? Of course not. We will have to pay for it in the overall cost of the agreement. If we have to pay for things we want, so should they. That’s my personal opinion as to why PBS should be viewed as a ‘concession’.
11-09-2018, 06:45 AM
#3023
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/CA
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by Silver02ex
You can still have that with PBS, if vacation or training events is only implemented after PBS line award. So if you have vacation or training the first week of the month, you can tell PBS to load your schedule at the beginning of the month, causing those drops and pay protected. This only works if that's how the language is written. It's still possible to still have "vacation touch" or whatever you want to call it. I believe ExpressJet had this around 2006-2007.
Negative. ExpressJet had line bidding around that time period. They introduced PBS using the SmartPref bidding system for secondary line construction somewhere around 2013. It was a terrible PBS system that routinely would restrict the bid award of even the number 1 bidder. In simple terms, if you were in the ‘restricted goup’ (determined by how all pilots bid) then your award was contingent upon not only what you bid, and what people senior to you bid, but also what people junior to you bid. Their fancy word was globalization which meant your preferences were sacrificed for the overal build. You can even bid a certain trip, which was awarded to someone junior to you who didn’t bid it, and you couldn’t grieve it because you were part of the Global Solution. (This assuming all other illegalities were complied with)
What you describe about putting vacation after award is technically possible to achieve, but totally defeats one of the main purposes of PBS. No Company will ever allow that to happen. Never has, never will. That’s a major reason why some guys who get three weeks off in a row every quarter look at PBS as a major concession.
11-09-2018, 07:26 AM
#3026
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 657
Originally Posted by dracir1
Agreed. Despite all the other airlines guys chiming in, I don’t think there has been ONE airline that voted in any sort of PBS system in an other than concessionary contract. I’m sure anyone from one of these airlines can correct me if I’m wrong.
..
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Unfortunately over here at NK they willingly voted in pbs in exchange for subpar pay rates and a “bonus.” My advice to you would be don’t do it unless everything else is so stellar that you can’t pass it up. Also be aware that with pbs comes lower staffing numbers. The rumor here at Spirit is that the lines for ORD and DFW this month were a test run for pbs. Which meant we only had 59 lines and the next 84 were reserve/relief so more then half the base ended up on some type of reserve. For sure don’t decide how you want to vote until you see the whole thing but once you do actually read it then look at the money they are offering.
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11-09-2018, 07:55 AM
#3027
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,394
Our leverage
I was talking with some folks from the school house yesterday. They said that in the last week (since the framework email) the number of new applicants has gone through the roof.
As soon as an actual AIP is reached and posted online, we will have so many new applicants that our leverage will effectively be gone. I suppose this is par for the course, but not something I really thought much about until now.
Here's to hoping the AIP is satisfactory.
As soon as an actual AIP is reached and posted online, we will have so many new applicants that our leverage will effectively be gone. I suppose this is par for the course, but not something I really thought much about until now.
Here's to hoping the AIP is satisfactory.
11-09-2018, 07:56 AM
#3028
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by flyingpuma1
The rumor here at Spirit is that the lines for ORD and DFW this month were a test run for pbs. Which meant we only had 59 lines and the next 84 were reserve/relief so more then half the base ended up on some type of reserve.
11-09-2018, 07:57 AM
#3029
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 193
Originally Posted by flyingpuma1
Unfortunately over here at NK they willingly voted in pbs in exchange for subpar pay rates and a “bonus.” My advice to you would be don’t do it unless everything else is so stellar that you can’t pass it up. Also be aware that with pbs comes lower staffing numbers. The rumor here at Spirit is that the lines for ORD and DFW this month were a test run for pbs. Which meant we only had 59 lines and the next 84 were reserve/relief so more then half the base ended up on some type of reserve. For sure don’t decide how you want to vote until you see the whole thing but once you do actually read it then look at the money they are offering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
11-09-2018, 08:37 AM
#3030
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Position: Not an RJ driver anymore
Posts: 1,033
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
With line bidding, one of the big advantages is when we have vacation in the month to be bid. With line bidding, it is possible to bid a line that assigned vacation days touches multiple trips. Any trips that are touched by vacation are dropped and pay protected (unless they come back through domicile and can be split).
With our current base structure, many trips leave domicile on day one and don't return until the last day. If you can touch one of these trips with your first vacation day and another trip with your last vacation day, it is fairly easy to turn one week of vacation into 3 weeks off, while getting the vacation pay in additional to pay protection on the affected trips prior to, and after actual vacation days.
In addition, you can slide your vacation up to 3 days either way. Basically, with strategic bidding, we can triple our actual assigned vacation days, while getting pay protected for all of the trips that vacation may touch.
This also creates a lot of open time drops, that can then be used by other crew members to add, drop, or swap trips to enhance their own schedule. If you are a line holder, this allows huge schedule flexibility or modification.
Many crew members also elect to pick up flying on days that were cleared by vacation and associated conflict drops, thus adding more credit.
A similar thing can be done with transition and training conflicts.
With our current base structure, many trips leave domicile on day one and don't return until the last day. If you can touch one of these trips with your first vacation day and another trip with your last vacation day, it is fairly easy to turn one week of vacation into 3 weeks off, while getting the vacation pay in additional to pay protection on the affected trips prior to, and after actual vacation days.
In addition, you can slide your vacation up to 3 days either way. Basically, with strategic bidding, we can triple our actual assigned vacation days, while getting pay protected for all of the trips that vacation may touch.
This also creates a lot of open time drops, that can then be used by other crew members to add, drop, or swap trips to enhance their own schedule. If you are a line holder, this allows huge schedule flexibility or modification.
Many crew members also elect to pick up flying on days that were cleared by vacation and associated conflict drops, thus adding more credit.
A similar thing can be done with transition and training conflicts.
As I've said here before, with PBS, without PBS, I sincerely hope you all get what you deserve. I have some really good friends who are pilots at F9 and every one of you has been abused for way too long. Go get what you deserve. Whatever it takes.
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