Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-20-2018, 08:46 AM
#3562
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,103
Originally Posted by dracir1
The real issue...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
11-20-2018, 10:04 AM
#3563
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by Carbonrider
How long have you lived in this fear-based world of yours?? You specifically used the word "if" multiple times. Do you not realize that there is some degree of faith we must have in the people empowered to do their jobs? They would not agree to something that's going to negatively impact the pilot group, they have to live and work hear in the future as well. If you would have taken a minute to understand the concepts behind the PBS agreement, you'd understand that ANY debate that cannot be resolved between the parties goes directly to an arbitrator on expedited terms that decides the outcome based upon standards at mainline carriers using NavBlue. Delta, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Spirit...so contrary to what you'd like to declare, it doesn't matter that this is Indigo.
Educate yourself. No one is getting screwed royally, but I'm sure you and the rest of the conspiracists will find conjecture to support your nonsense.
Educate yourself. No one is getting screwed royally, but I'm sure you and the rest of the conspiracists will find conjecture to support your nonsense.
11-20-2018, 11:01 AM
#3564
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
We've been played
Here's the way I see it right now:
We have simply been outplayed by Indigo, Frontier, the NMB and the system in general.
The reality is that the NMB sees us differently from the legacies. And maybe they are right to a degree. Low cost airlines around the world pay their pilots less than the big, international legacy airlines. SouthWest has broken that chain, but they really aren't a low cost carrier anymore and it took them 30 years to get to industry leading. They are basically an 'economy only' legacy. They aint cheap anymore.
First, I feel that the company has an awful lot to use to make their case that they can't and wont pay us on par with the big boys. The NMB sees a roughly 45 to 50% pay raise and thinks its a killer deal. If we vote no, don't expect to see a drop of sympathy or help from the NMB. Maybe we don't need their help, I don't really know? But I can guarantee you, they won't be helping us out if we vote no.
Second, we just weren't going to do all that much better. Lets be honest, we were never going to get to UAL/DAL rates. So the reality is the best we could probably ever hope for is to maybe split the difference between Spirits rates and the legacy rates, and that's a stretch. Therefore, the best we could get would be $10/ hour higher, maybe $15. Unfortunately, we would be sacrificing a huge raise for an undetermined period of time to hopefully eek out a few more bucks an hour. That may or may not be worth it, its simply impossible to know.
Third, if we vote it down and send the NC back to the table, the company will simply shuffle money around to make the deal look better to us. Maybe they will add a little bit to the pot, but not much. If we send it back, we need to have a very unified reason why. I don't even know that we have that? Some guys are mad about PBS, some are mad about hourly rates and some are mad about LTD. We can't vote it down and not have a unified reason and demands. What the heck is the NC supposed to do with that? The company could fix our pay rates while taking something else away. These guys aren't stupid, and they aren't just going to give up more money for nothing in exchange. You want $250 an hour? Sure, just give up your 5 hour a day vacation... Heck, the company probably already has a plan if we vote it down. They already know what to move around to make it look better.
Lastly, I believe that this was going to be one of the most difficult section 6 negotiations ever. We were soooo far behind its not even funny, and we are negotiating against the toughest boys in the industry. Frontier has converted into a ULCC, like it or not. Anyone hired in the past 5 years knew this. Anyone here longer than 5 years has had their company change business models, something that is simply out of your control. In addition, Indigo is simply a cold hearted group of private equity, "profit over people" group of assholz. This just wasn't going to go well for us.
Now, that being said, I don't think we are totally screwed here either. This TA is subpar, no doubt. But it brings us way way closer to industry standard, and puts us in a much better position going forward. We are currently an statistical outlier, and if this is voted in, we will be in the pattern, albeit the bottom end of it. Isn't that what our lanyards said? Bring us into the pattern. Not, bring us to the top of the industry?
This deal provides big pay raises, and a substantially improved retirement contribution system. While we should all be disappointed, this is not a total garbage contract either.
FLAME AWAY!!!
I want to see how ****ed off every one gets at me. We all know this suckers getting voted in anyhow. Pilots cant resist money. Indigo simply outplayed us. The only question is if this passes by more than 60%
We have simply been outplayed by Indigo, Frontier, the NMB and the system in general.
The reality is that the NMB sees us differently from the legacies. And maybe they are right to a degree. Low cost airlines around the world pay their pilots less than the big, international legacy airlines. SouthWest has broken that chain, but they really aren't a low cost carrier anymore and it took them 30 years to get to industry leading. They are basically an 'economy only' legacy. They aint cheap anymore.
First, I feel that the company has an awful lot to use to make their case that they can't and wont pay us on par with the big boys. The NMB sees a roughly 45 to 50% pay raise and thinks its a killer deal. If we vote no, don't expect to see a drop of sympathy or help from the NMB. Maybe we don't need their help, I don't really know? But I can guarantee you, they won't be helping us out if we vote no.
Second, we just weren't going to do all that much better. Lets be honest, we were never going to get to UAL/DAL rates. So the reality is the best we could probably ever hope for is to maybe split the difference between Spirits rates and the legacy rates, and that's a stretch. Therefore, the best we could get would be $10/ hour higher, maybe $15. Unfortunately, we would be sacrificing a huge raise for an undetermined period of time to hopefully eek out a few more bucks an hour. That may or may not be worth it, its simply impossible to know.
Third, if we vote it down and send the NC back to the table, the company will simply shuffle money around to make the deal look better to us. Maybe they will add a little bit to the pot, but not much. If we send it back, we need to have a very unified reason why. I don't even know that we have that? Some guys are mad about PBS, some are mad about hourly rates and some are mad about LTD. We can't vote it down and not have a unified reason and demands. What the heck is the NC supposed to do with that? The company could fix our pay rates while taking something else away. These guys aren't stupid, and they aren't just going to give up more money for nothing in exchange. You want $250 an hour? Sure, just give up your 5 hour a day vacation... Heck, the company probably already has a plan if we vote it down. They already know what to move around to make it look better.
Lastly, I believe that this was going to be one of the most difficult section 6 negotiations ever. We were soooo far behind its not even funny, and we are negotiating against the toughest boys in the industry. Frontier has converted into a ULCC, like it or not. Anyone hired in the past 5 years knew this. Anyone here longer than 5 years has had their company change business models, something that is simply out of your control. In addition, Indigo is simply a cold hearted group of private equity, "profit over people" group of assholz. This just wasn't going to go well for us.
Now, that being said, I don't think we are totally screwed here either. This TA is subpar, no doubt. But it brings us way way closer to industry standard, and puts us in a much better position going forward. We are currently an statistical outlier, and if this is voted in, we will be in the pattern, albeit the bottom end of it. Isn't that what our lanyards said? Bring us into the pattern. Not, bring us to the top of the industry?
This deal provides big pay raises, and a substantially improved retirement contribution system. While we should all be disappointed, this is not a total garbage contract either.
FLAME AWAY!!!
I want to see how ****ed off every one gets at me. We all know this suckers getting voted in anyhow. Pilots cant resist money. Indigo simply outplayed us. The only question is if this passes by more than 60%
11-20-2018, 11:20 AM
#3566
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,359
Originally Posted by SFA320
No flame needed. It’s an accurate assement Aero.
Well said.
Well said.
How about this for unification - let’s all vote yes IF we can get the contract duration down to 3 years. Maybe even ask for a rate increase of 2% per year for every year after contract is up that we don’t get a new deal (increasing their incentive to negotiate). That way we’re not stuck with this POS for over 5 and will be better equipped to negotiate with whomever owns us by then.
11-20-2018, 11:44 AM
#3567
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 298
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Here's the way I see it right now:
Blah blah blah.
FLAME AWAY!!!
Blah blah.
Blah blah blah.
FLAME AWAY!!!
Blah blah.
Last edited by I like BIG Bus; 11-20-2018 at 11:57 AM.
11-20-2018, 12:22 PM
#3569
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by I like BIG Bus
Just roll over and take it then. But excellent job on bringing just about all of the company's talking points to light in one post...although you forgot, what if there's another 911, or what if you need LTD, and the infamous Spirit clincher, "what if we merge or get bought". You can reason this all you want. It obviously doesn't make sense to vote yes, and it certainly doesn't make sense to vote no. I personally cannot vote for something I don't want to live with for 8 yrs. It all comes down to this...if you're scared vote yes... if you're not scared vote no! Cause no matter how you slice it this is a bottom feeder deal with PBS, PERIOD!!!
The stock market is looking uglier by the day. The bull market is over. Recession is coming! Vote it in now before the economy crumbles! Lol. Stock market has turned negative for the year now.
Totally forgot to make the LTD argument. Thanks. That increase in benefits will be nice
Anyhow, this deal isn't that bad. And since in the surveys we all said we wanted quality of life more than pay rates, the union certainly delivered on not making pay the top priority! Not really sure about the quality of life yet. That determination will come with full TA language. Rumor is the PBS language will be good. ?
11-20-2018, 12:24 PM
#3570
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by dracir1
Yes, I agree. Well put and what I was mentioning just a few posts ago.
How about this for unification - let’s all vote yes IF we can get the contract duration down to 3 years. Maybe even ask for a rate increase of 2% per year for every year after contract is up that we don’t get a new deal (increasing their incentive to negotiate). That way we’re not stuck with this POS for over 5 and will be better equipped to negotiate with whomever owns us by then.
How about this for unification - let’s all vote yes IF we can get the contract duration down to 3 years. Maybe even ask for a rate increase of 2% per year for every year after contract is up that we don’t get a new deal (increasing their incentive to negotiate). That way we’re not stuck with this POS for over 5 and will be better equipped to negotiate with whomever owns us by then.
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