Laughable Bravado
11-10-2018, 10:31 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by Ducttape
Your illustration is called “life and reality”. Do you take it? Well people take jobs every day that might pay less than a competitor pays, that’s reality. What happens when that “driver” in your story tells his boss he isn’t taking the money and scheduling software? He gets fired. That’s life and reality.
I’ve always found the argument of “we fly the same plane, we should get paid the same” an interesting argument. Is there another occupation where people who have the same job, different companies, get paid the exact same based on the job itself? Is there anywhere this happens? Because this would be anti free market and ore along the lines of socialism. You know, the thing that many on the forums are against as we MAGA 🙄.
You guys get what you can using the leverage you believe your group holds. The idea “Delta makes” or “Speedy Cab makes,” so we should make, is a weak one. Just as if Delta filed bankruptcy tomorrow and took massive pay cuts, you wouldn’t take the same cuts. Doesn’t work that way.
I’ve always found the argument of “we fly the same plane, we should get paid the same” an interesting argument. Is there another occupation where people who have the same job, different companies, get paid the exact same based on the job itself? Is there anywhere this happens? Because this would be anti free market and ore along the lines of socialism. You know, the thing that many on the forums are against as we MAGA 🙄.
You guys get what you can using the leverage you believe your group holds. The idea “Delta makes” or “Speedy Cab makes,” so we should make, is a weak one. Just as if Delta filed bankruptcy tomorrow and took massive pay cuts, you wouldn’t take the same cuts. Doesn’t work that way.
From Wikipedia:
Regulatory capture is a form of government failure which occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or political concerns of special interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.[1] When regulatory capture occurs, the interests of firms or political groups are prioritized over the interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. Government agencies suffering regulatory capture are called "captured agencies".
In this environment with the option to stike what would we have obtained and would it have been sustainable? That would be a free market. I’ve come to view unions as the perfect counter power to corporate greed. If the union takes to much investors won’t see the adequate return relative to the risk and the company won’t grow ,or if the union took way to much the business wouldn’t be competitive and the union members loose their jobs. The union has real skin in the game, bureaucrats not to much. Anyway, our product (which costs less) provides less overall value to a customer, not the pilot. Delta pilots don’t do their job any different than we do. Don’t sell yourself short. The NMB and management is doing enough of that for you.
11-10-2018, 05:43 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 514
Originally Posted by kspilot
What ores along the lines of socialism (ie centralization) more than the NMB? The need for reduced compensation is real when it is necessary for the survival of the corporate entity. But the idea that this model can require margins that exceed twice that of the traditional and yet have employees paid discount wages is a narrative that has been pushed for only a few short years but apparently sufficently well as you have bought off on it. It’s the same job, with the same obligations, the same liability( in fact we have slightly more when comparing airframes) as anybody else yet right now we make half as the investors make in some examples earn 3 times an average return as the rest of the industry. The only reason this situation exists is because the bureaucrats of an administrative agency have reinterpreted the RLA as having granted them unrestricted control of all leverage in labor negotiations and they believe the same narrative on your worth as you do.
From Wikipedia:
Regulatory capture is a form of government failure which occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or political concerns of special interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.[1] When regulatory capture occurs, the interests of firms or political groups are prioritized over the interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. Government agencies suffering regulatory capture are called "captured agencies".
In this environment with the option to stike what would we have obtained and would it have been sustainable? That would be a free market. I’ve come to view unions as the perfect counter power to corporate greed. If the union takes to much investors won’t see the adequate return relative to the risk and the company won’t grow ,or if the union took way to much the business wouldn’t be competitive and the union members loose their jobs. The union has real skin in the game, bureaucrats not to much. Anyway, our product (which costs less) provides less overall value to a customer, not the pilot. Delta pilots don’t do their job any different than we do. Don’t sell yourself short. The NMB and management is doing enough of that for you.
From Wikipedia:
Regulatory capture is a form of government failure which occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or political concerns of special interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.[1] When regulatory capture occurs, the interests of firms or political groups are prioritized over the interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. Government agencies suffering regulatory capture are called "captured agencies".
In this environment with the option to stike what would we have obtained and would it have been sustainable? That would be a free market. I’ve come to view unions as the perfect counter power to corporate greed. If the union takes to much investors won’t see the adequate return relative to the risk and the company won’t grow ,or if the union took way to much the business wouldn’t be competitive and the union members loose their jobs. The union has real skin in the game, bureaucrats not to much. Anyway, our product (which costs less) provides less overall value to a customer, not the pilot. Delta pilots don’t do their job any different than we do. Don’t sell yourself short. The NMB and management is doing enough of that for you.
11-10-2018, 07:25 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by Ducttape
Your illustration is called “life and reality”. Do you take it? Well people take jobs every day that might pay less than a competitor pays, that’s reality. What happens when that “driver” in your story tells his boss he isn’t taking the money and scheduling software? He gets fired. That’s life and reality.
I’ve always found the argument of “we fly the same plane, we should get paid the same” an interesting argument. Is there another occupation where people who have the same job, different companies, get paid the exact same based on the job itself? Is there anywhere this happens? Because this would be anti free market and ore along the lines of socialism. You know, the thing that many on the forums are against as we MAGA 🙄.
You guys get what you can using the leverage you believe your group holds. The idea “Delta makes” or “Speedy Cab makes,” so we should make, is a weak one. Just as if Delta filed bankruptcy tomorrow and took massive pay cuts, you wouldn’t take the same cuts. Doesn’t work that way.
I’ve always found the argument of “we fly the same plane, we should get paid the same” an interesting argument. Is there another occupation where people who have the same job, different companies, get paid the exact same based on the job itself? Is there anywhere this happens? Because this would be anti free market and ore along the lines of socialism. You know, the thing that many on the forums are against as we MAGA 🙄.
You guys get what you can using the leverage you believe your group holds. The idea “Delta makes” or “Speedy Cab makes,” so we should make, is a weak one. Just as if Delta filed bankruptcy tomorrow and took massive pay cuts, you wouldn’t take the same cuts. Doesn’t work that way.
But besides that, your injection of people “taking” a job (as in getting hired) is much different. My example starts off with you ALREADY having invested time in the company. Significant time. Seniority and all that comes with it (standing within the company, retirement, etc.). And, keep in mind that when you started, your pay was much more comparable to others. Depending on when you were hired, you quite possibly were paid the highest of all similar taxi companies. Since then, you didn’t all of the sudden get worse at your job. You didn’t do anything that would necessitate a pay decrease or shortage. Your only issue is that while other companies increased their pay, your company did not.
So now finally getting on offer to be still LAST in pay after years of being ignored is OK with you?
You’re in a race. You are last by a LONG stretch. Catching up to being still last (but just barely) or tied for last seems like you’re still losing....If you hold out for more, maybe you can move up to middle of the pack (or dare even around the leaders). But if you don’t actually fight for that chance, you never know if that chance exists.
Last edited by dracir1; 11-10-2018 at 07:56 PM.
11-11-2018, 06:47 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Posts: 196
Originally Posted by dracir1
Ah but it does - more often than not. All the airline unions took concessions in order to survive (or they folded). And all of the other airlines have since offered pay raises to their unions (to stay competitive). The wages aren’t exactly the same but they’re much closer to each other than F9 is to any of them. In fact, many airlines have “me too” clauses that activate automatically when a competitor increases their pay rate. So, the F9 pay situation is actually the anomaly- the one situation that fell through the cracks and didn’t follow the norm. Which is my point.
But besides that, your injection of people “taking” a job (as in getting hired) is much different. My example starts off with you ALREADY having invested time in the company. Significant time. Seniority and all that comes with it (standing within the company, retirement, etc.). And, keep in mind that when you started, your pay was much more comparable to others. Depending on when you were hired, you quite possibly were paid the highest of all similar taxi companies. Since then, you didn’t all of the sudden get worse at your job. You didn’t do anything that would necessitate a pay decrease or shortage. Your only issue is that while other companies increased their pay, your company did not.
So now finally getting on offer to be still LAST in pay after years of being ignored is OK with you?
You’re in a race. You are last by a LONG stretch. Catching up to being still last (but just barely) or tied for last seems like you’re still losing....If you hold out for more, maybe you can move up to middle of the pack (or dare even around the leaders). But if you don’t actually fight for that chance, you never know if that chance exists.
But besides that, your injection of people “taking” a job (as in getting hired) is much different. My example starts off with you ALREADY having invested time in the company. Significant time. Seniority and all that comes with it (standing within the company, retirement, etc.). And, keep in mind that when you started, your pay was much more comparable to others. Depending on when you were hired, you quite possibly were paid the highest of all similar taxi companies. Since then, you didn’t all of the sudden get worse at your job. You didn’t do anything that would necessitate a pay decrease or shortage. Your only issue is that while other companies increased their pay, your company did not.
So now finally getting on offer to be still LAST in pay after years of being ignored is OK with you?
You’re in a race. You are last by a LONG stretch. Catching up to being still last (but just barely) or tied for last seems like you’re still losing....If you hold out for more, maybe you can move up to middle of the pack (or dare even around the leaders). But if you don’t actually fight for that chance, you never know if that chance exists.
The reality is management will decide the value of its pilots and if it sees them as a strategic partner or simply as labor. Pilots want to be a partner, most management sees them as expensive labor. Spirit was adamant against profit sharing; why they wouldn’t want the guys in control of the fuel bill on the same page, who knows? So they get “labor” mentality and guys fly around at whatever speed that best suits them. Short sided by management, but their decision.
So it might not be morally or ethically fair that you are not seeing the gains of your peers; but it’s up to you to exercise your options. You can speak with your feet (nobody does), or collectively vote down this AIP (TA) and demand more. Whether your group does that or if it will pay off in the end is a decision that will need to be made.
11-11-2018, 07:13 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by Ducttape
The company doesn’t care about your seniority or the value it brings in experience. You’re writing about what is morally or ethically acceptable; that since other airlines are seeing gains, you should see the same gains.
The reality is management will decide the value of its pilots and if it sees them as a strategic partner or simply as labor. Pilots want to be a partner, most management sees them as expensive labor. Spirit was adamant against profit sharing; why they wouldn’t want the guys in control of the fuel bill on the same page, who knows? So they get “labor” mentality and guys fly around at whatever speed that best suits them. Short sided by management, but their decision.
So it might not be morally or ethically fair that you are not seeing the gains of your peers; but it’s up to you to exercise your options. You can speak with your feet (nobody does), or collectively vote down this AIP (TA) and demand more. Whether your group does that or if it will pay off in the end is a decision that will need to be made.
The reality is management will decide the value of its pilots and if it sees them as a strategic partner or simply as labor. Pilots want to be a partner, most management sees them as expensive labor. Spirit was adamant against profit sharing; why they wouldn’t want the guys in control of the fuel bill on the same page, who knows? So they get “labor” mentality and guys fly around at whatever speed that best suits them. Short sided by management, but their decision.
So it might not be morally or ethically fair that you are not seeing the gains of your peers; but it’s up to you to exercise your options. You can speak with your feet (nobody does), or collectively vote down this AIP (TA) and demand more. Whether your group does that or if it will pay off in the end is a decision that will need to be made.
Management does NOT decide the value of its pilots. The MARKET does. And is the very reason why all other airlines have gotten raises. It’s also the same reason concessions happened after 9/11. The market dictates.
The only reason this management has been able to “stall” providing raises is because of external factors (length of last concessionary contract, favorable NMB position at the time, etc). Even now, with their desire to sell/IPO, they have to do “something” about labor and is partially why they are trying. The market necessitates that they now give us a raise.
Management is fighting with all their might. Negotiations delays with feeble excuses. Cancelled vacation after cancelled vacation. Blatant disregard for adherence to the contract. Hell, they’ve even been found GUILTY of not bargaining in good faith.
They are willing to fight - why isn’t every F9 pilot? Do you suppose if we vote no that their next proposal will be LESS?
The biggest raise in company history and it still the lowest salary, retirement and work rules in the industry. That’s not generosity on their part, it’s an indication of how far behind we are now because of their lack of generosity prior.
Last edited by dracir1; 11-11-2018 at 07:29 AM.
11-11-2018, 07:31 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by PulledBreaker
I'll see your yes vote, and raise you to a 55-45 nay vote.
People are ****ed. They feel disrespected. Abused. Purposefully neglected. That has a price...
Don’t sell this pilot force short just yet.
11-11-2018, 07:47 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by dracir1
I actually think it will be very few that vote yes.
Ironically, for the past 2 years all I've heard from the senior guys is their fear of junior guys voting in PBS at their expense. Oh how the tables have turned...
11-11-2018, 08:09 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by PulledBreaker
Everyone I've talked to that has been here less than 5 years is a resounding no. It's the 12+ year guys who I've spoken to that think it's the best we will get and are yes votes.
Ironically, for the past 2 years all I've heard from the senior guys is their fear of junior guys voting in PBS at their expense. Oh how the tables have turned...
Ironically, for the past 2 years all I've heard from the senior guys is their fear of junior guys voting in PBS at their expense. Oh how the tables have turned...
