Laughable Bravado
11-15-2018, 07:12 AM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
Thinking out-loud here: and I've never seen this before, but I wonder if it has ever happened: A small group of pilots who have experience/education in communications, marketing, etc. That with the help of others put together a real counter-campaign to the roadshows that are about to begin. Start a go-fund-me to give them some rudimentary funds to build their own shiny glossy charts and power-points. Why should it be so one sided? Would pilots attend? Could it make a difference?
Maybe buy up frontiermarketrate.com and get an RV or something? I bet someone could find an RV. Hey! We could do what the union said they were doing, all along.
11-15-2018, 07:18 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,394
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
Thinking out-loud here: and I've never seen this before, but I wonder if it has ever happened: A small group of pilots who have experience/education in communications, marketing, etc. That with the help of others put together a real counter-campaign to the roadshows that are about to begin. Start a go-fund-me to give them some rudimentary funds to build their own shiny glossy charts and power-points. Why should it be so one sided? Would pilots attend? Could it make a difference?
11-15-2018, 07:20 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by Mugatu
Let’s get the TA out so we can vote it down. We don’t need any roadshows or webinars. It’ll be a waste of our time.
11-15-2018, 07:20 AM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson
I'm sure the MEC and Indigo will have a gettogether on the courthouse steps where they'll ceremoniously shred the lawsuit filings in a gold plated paper shredder. Then they'll cut a ribbon unfurling the TA as they announce new rehashed routes.
11-15-2018, 07:34 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 109
Let’s take a breath for a minute. It’s not time to recall the MEC or oust ALPA in favor of FAPA.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
11-15-2018, 07:49 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by Biffsteritis
Let’s take a breath for a minute. It’s not time to recall the MEC or oust ALPA in favor of FAPA.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
11-15-2018, 07:56 AM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Biffsteritis
Let’s take a breath for a minute. It’s not time to recall the MEC or oust ALPA in favor of FAPA.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
Worse-case scenario: The MEC has done exactly what they are mandated to do, they’ve negotiated a contract that they think will be acceptable to most of the membership and represents the long-term interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Best-case scenario: This is yet another negotiating strategy put forth by the MEC. Maybe they want it voted down? Then they can take it to the NMB so an impasse can eventually be declared.
My hope is for the latter.
Either way, it’s us, the membership, who will decide. If it’s a turd, like I and many other’s think it is, we vote it down and send them back to work. Remember, our elected representatives work for us! Our dues pay for these negotiations. Their job is to negotiate in our best interests.
I admit that the bullet points are VERY DISAPPOINTING, but I am currently withholding judgement of the MEC. So far, I’ve been very happy with the current MEC. They’ve taken an aggressive stance in negotiations, they have vehemently defended individual pilot’s against an antagonist and vengeful management team, and they’ve done a great job communicating with the pilot group.
Before we go nuclear and start yelling “recall” or “we want FAPA”, let’s let the MEC play their cards. Look what happened when we announced an AIP and took down our websites—Full classes. Imagine how quickly that dries up if the union makes an announcement that this deal stinks!!!
That’ll be a tough pill for Barry to swallow.
My problem is that if the MEC really wants us to vote it down, they should vote it down. Because by sending it out they are communicating to us that they have no more fight in them.
And if they work for us, why didn't they listen to us? For months, they repeated back to us what we wanted and didn't want. We knew, that they knew, what was expected.
If classes were drying up, the NC/MEC should have maximized this leverage at the table, not by some threat of a membership 'no' vote which may or may not happen. Besides the cat is now out of the bag, trying to unring a bell is orders of magnitude harder than exercising the leverage where and when you had it.
11-15-2018, 08:09 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
I truly appreciate the tone of your post.
My problem is that if the MEC really wants us to vote it down, they should vote it down. Because by sending it out they are communicating to us that they have no more fight in them.
And if they work for us, why didn't they listen to us? For months, they repeated back to us what we wanted and didn't want. We knew, that they knew, what was expected.
If classes were drying up, the NC/MEC should have maximized this leverage at the table, not by some threat of a membership 'no' vote which may or may not happen. Besides the cat is now out of the bag, trying to unring a bell is orders of magnitude harder than exercising the leverage where and when you had it.
My problem is that if the MEC really wants us to vote it down, they should vote it down. Because by sending it out they are communicating to us that they have no more fight in them.
And if they work for us, why didn't they listen to us? For months, they repeated back to us what we wanted and didn't want. We knew, that they knew, what was expected.
If classes were drying up, the NC/MEC should have maximized this leverage at the table, not by some threat of a membership 'no' vote which may or may not happen. Besides the cat is now out of the bag, trying to unring a bell is orders of magnitude harder than exercising the leverage where and when you had it.
We, that is ALL F9 pilots, made a critical mistake at the beginning of our negotiations. That error was the low offer we requested. It was much too low - some here were screaming that we underbid but by that time, the bid was already in. It was too late to try and use any leverage gained over time.
Just think, if Indigo had granted us everything we asked for (rates, contract language, etc.), we would still be bottom of the industry today. Despite that, the MEC would be forced to send it to us for a vote because it is, after all, what we asked for. Imagine being part of a negotiation and being granted what you ask for only to not allow it to go to the pilots for a vote stating that it's not enough. Talk about bad faith...
Indigo didn't give us all that we asked for, of course, but they did make what might be considered a reasonable offer. So, the MEC if fairly compelled to send it forward to us (all the while hoping/praying we don't accept).
By us voting it down (and voting it down strongly) we empower our MEC and NC to go back to the table and ask for rates/conditions that we should've asked for in the beginning. We as a group should never be afraid of voting and the MEC really is in a pretty good position here. If the AIP makes it past us, then the MEC was justified in giving it to us. If not, then they have the power/leverage/backing they need.
That's why is't important now to vote NO now AND to write your reps and let them know what it would take for your yes vote. Be realistic - asking for $500/hr and 20 days off every month is just as bad as considering the low rates we have now.
This is the first offer in a negotiation - nobody ever takes the 1st offer unless it's absolutely mind blowing. Ours is far from that.
