Laughable Bravado
11-15-2018, 08:23 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by dracir1
I disagree.
We, that is ALL F9 pilots, made a critical mistake at the beginning of our negotiations. That error was the low offer we requested. It was much too low - some here were screaming that we underbid but by that time, the bid was already in. It was too late to try and use any leverage gained over time.
Just think, if Indigo had granted us everything we asked for (rates, contract language, etc.), we would still be bottom of the industry today. Despite that, the MEC would be forced to send it to us for a vote because it is, after all, what we asked for. Imagine being part of a negotiation and being granted what you ask for only to not allow it to go to the pilots for a vote stating that it's not enough. Talk about bad faith...
Indigo didn't give us all that we asked for, of course, but they did make what might be considered a reasonable offer. So, the MEC if fairly compelled to send it forward to us (all the while hoping/praying we don't accept).
By us voting it down (and voting it down strongly) we empower our MEC and NC to go back to the table and ask for rates/conditions that we should've asked for in the beginning. We as a group should never be afraid of voting and the MEC really is in a pretty good position here. If the AIP makes it past us, then the MEC was justified in giving it to us. If not, then they have the power/leverage/backing they need.
That's why is't important now to vote NO now AND to write your reps and let them know what it would take for your yes vote. Be realistic - asking for $500/hr and 20 days off every month is just as bad as considering the low rates we have now.
This is the first offer in a negotiation - nobody ever takes the 1st offer unless it's absolutely mind blowing. Ours is far from that.
We, that is ALL F9 pilots, made a critical mistake at the beginning of our negotiations. That error was the low offer we requested. It was much too low - some here were screaming that we underbid but by that time, the bid was already in. It was too late to try and use any leverage gained over time.
Just think, if Indigo had granted us everything we asked for (rates, contract language, etc.), we would still be bottom of the industry today. Despite that, the MEC would be forced to send it to us for a vote because it is, after all, what we asked for. Imagine being part of a negotiation and being granted what you ask for only to not allow it to go to the pilots for a vote stating that it's not enough. Talk about bad faith...
Indigo didn't give us all that we asked for, of course, but they did make what might be considered a reasonable offer. So, the MEC if fairly compelled to send it forward to us (all the while hoping/praying we don't accept).
By us voting it down (and voting it down strongly) we empower our MEC and NC to go back to the table and ask for rates/conditions that we should've asked for in the beginning. We as a group should never be afraid of voting and the MEC really is in a pretty good position here. If the AIP makes it past us, then the MEC was justified in giving it to us. If not, then they have the power/leverage/backing they need.
That's why is't important now to vote NO now AND to write your reps and let them know what it would take for your yes vote. Be realistic - asking for $500/hr and 20 days off every month is just as bad as considering the low rates we have now.
This is the first offer in a negotiation - nobody ever takes the 1st offer unless it's absolutely mind blowing. Ours is far from that.
11-15-2018, 10:15 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by Aero1900
You could easily print up a one page document explaining why you think it should be voted down. Print up a couple hundred copies and hand them out. Attend the roadshows and give them out. Leave them on the flight deck. Cheap and easy. No need to create funds or glossy boards. Just make the argument compelling
Some ideas...
•Pay rates below everyone but Allegiant and Sun Country (unless Sun Country is currently negotiating?).
•PBS without many details (my understanding is that the TA will not spell it all out, but build a framework for a team made up of both pilots and the company to finish the language). <—- That in itself is enough to earn my NO vote.
•The middle of the pay scale is significantly below industry average.
•For those looking at the 2023 rates... In 5 years we will either be at the bottom of the industry (still) or we will have these rates while others are taking concessions. If the latter, no doubt we’ll be forced into concessions as well. So either way that $270 doesn’t sound so great if we never get there, OR it’s still the bottom.
•Retirement is below average.
•Min duty day is below average.
•Only can drop to 60 1/2 the year.
•Per diem low.
•No overrides.
I’m sure there’s a lot more as well.
11-15-2018, 08:56 PM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by Patternholder
Your response speaks for itself!
11-15-2018, 09:22 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Need a real job
how are you so positive that this contract is going to be acceptable when you’ve seen the bullet points?!?! You do know the bullet points highlight the best improvements of the contract? You’re a ****ing idiot. Plain and simple. Your just another fear vote. Carry on bottom dragger
I guess the interview didn't go well with United? Did you make it past the hogan?
11-16-2018, 10:58 PM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 541
To those saying this may be a negotiating stragety to have us vote this down; I respectfully say that can’t be the case. If we vote it down the MEC and NC are ousted and we go about the reelection process. They wouldn’t agree to something that they think wouldn’t pass. Let’s wait for the TA to come out read it over and then decide no sense getting worked up right now.
11-16-2018, 11:28 PM
#137
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: doggy style
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by Need a real job
how are you so positive that this contract is going to be acceptable when you’ve seen the bullet points?!?! You do know the bullet points highlight the best improvements of the contract? You’re a ****ing idiot. Plain and simple. Your just another fear vote. Carry on bottom dragger
11-17-2018, 05:23 AM
#139
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,348
Originally Posted by SFA320
To those saying this may be a negotiating stragety to have us vote this down; I respectfully say that can’t be the case. If we vote it down the MEC and NC are ousted and we go about the reelection process. They wouldn’t agree to something that they think wouldn’t pass. Let’s wait for the TA to come out read it over and then decide no sense getting worked up right now.
11-17-2018, 05:36 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
In my mind the NC and MEC caved..... I just want to know what the “carrot” or the “threat” from the OTHER SIDE (NMB INCLUDED) was...
