Not to wordy... but BLs memo says "up to three" new bases by summer. They may not open anything. This is the same guy who comes into ground school and asks "where do you think the next base will be?". He just wants to distract everyone before he shows the slides showing how many planes are coming next year... which they never achieve. Hard to tell if he is completely FOS or just doesn't know better. Prolly the first option.

Im not going to hold Barry or Indigo’s water. But they’ve taken airplanes and opened new bases like they’ve said. Airplane deliveries have been reduced due to supply chain issues from Airbus. That has been stated repeatedly.

Eh, even before the supply chain issues, almost everything they have promised has been a day late, or a dollar short.

I mean, who posted that BL said that he hadn't seen the promotional video touting Dublin and Hawaii? LOL. Smoke, mirrors, and half truths are the name of the game with these people.

The only “smoke and mirrors” you and everyone else should be concerned with is the smoke and mirrors concerning our new contract.

I’ll give you a hint. When they tell you we can only offer you Spirit +1, because that’s your closest peer group, vote NO.

I've also started to wonder if the pivot to day trips/more domiciles is laying the groundwork for the company to point to Allegiant as the primary industry peer if negotiations go to a mediator. "The legacies aren't Frontier's peers because of the different business model and a majority of day trips afford pilots a QOL that is unattainable at the legacies or even Spirit."

BF explicitly said that companies need to fight against rising labor costs, and with all the potential problems a day trip-only model could pose, I could see this as a potential reason for the company to be pivoting this way at this time.

This is all speculation, however.

Yeah. Well. Vote No. Smoke and mirrors. It’s just that simple.

And when their excuse is that they’re broke, because they’ve been unprofitable for some quarters, you should still vote no to a sub par contract.

So, I gotta say, I'm out on all the "industry peer" rhetoric. Honestly, I don't get it. Just because two airlines both mostly do day trips doesn't mean they're comparable. Five Guys and White Castle both make hamburgers . . . they are not industry peers in terms of customer types desired.

Quite frankly, the DOMESTIC AIRLINE industry has spoken (not just Allegiant). Check out the ALPA.org website and FFT MEC Contract Comparison (for 1 Jan 2024). It's done pretty well. That's the industry we're using.

And in the end, whatever TA is sent out to us still has to be voted in. Our votes indirectly decide who our peers are...

I'm not the savviest guy on contract negotiations and I was mostly just spit ballin, but I don't think endless no votes if/when negotiations reach the mediator would be effective. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if we enter mediation and the company convinces the mediator that they're being reasonable (even if they're not), the pilot group can't just continue to vote no, or else the mediator can force a contract. (Again, I could be wrong and I'm by no means an expert.)


Five guys is Delta, White Castle and Burger King are Allegiant/Frontier. ie "different business models."

Frontier chases the leisure/poor travelers, Delta caters to the business travelers and wealthier folk. "they are not industry peers in terms of customer types desired."

I wholeheartedly agree that Frontier deserves an industry-standard contract, and there's no legitimate argument to deny that. I'm just speculating on what could be potential backroom shenanigans/ulterior motives on the company's part to make its case look better in front of a mediator if/when that happens.

All speculation and I could very well be dead wrong. Indeed, I hope I am.

So I am by no means an expert either. However, my understanding when it comes to mediation, is it’s also a question of what is industry standard.

So to your point. Yes, it’s very difficult to ask for things from the company that are not industry standard. For example, 24 hr long call is not industry standard. Convincing a mediator otherwise would be tough.

Likewise, the company can ask the pilot group for industry standard items that we might consider concessionary. For example, our reserve grid rules, and trade/drop rules might be better than our peers. Which is why the company is going after them, and a mediator might side with them.

Hence, the term “negotiation”. This is the argument about who our peers are, how we see ourselves, and to vote no.

Does Burger King pay less for labor than 5 Guys? Never worked at either so don't know. Point is that the Frontier experience is for sure chasing a different crowd that is lured in by cheap fares and then the add ons for the less prepared/informed squeeze the profit out. The employees operating the plane though have the same skill, responsibility, and risk that the Delta/UAL/AAL pilots have so let Frontier find other ways to "cheap out" on the airline experience and keep the job of pilot at where it should be, just like every other part 121 carrier in the US. Your "peers" are those doing the same job at all the other airlines. Do the Frontier execs get paid remarkably less than their peers at the other airlines?