Looking over the last few company communications I noticed a subtle tinge of desperation. The effort that was put in to selling a paycut with associated cuts in QOL had a whiff of failed gas lighting and the associated damage control that comes with it.

With that in mind I think of our current contract. Given the time it should have been glorious. The cards were all stacked in our favor, but we all know by now the short comings of our contract as we worry about how much collateral we will need to give up to plug up the holes. As I contemplate how we got here my mind goes back to the impenetrable facade management was putting up all the way to the very end. Our management went from an immovable object blocking any advancement to a rocket sled dragging the NC along pulling to have a contract done with a quickness that left many of the finer details on the cutting room floor.

This is the danger of negotiating with uninterested parties. They grind down your expectations with years of protracted jawboning only to end up with little to no progress. Eventually when the interested party is sufficiently worn down and the external conditions are advantageous. Suddenly they are willing to negotiate. After years of pressure to preform, stalled negotiations and the realistic questions the NC would ask them selves “what could I do to make this work?” When the uninterested party finally shows up offering relatively small gains all the forces are on Go now, Move fast. Which was the intention. This is how we have the present contract. It is a function of grinding down the Pilot Group and the NC/MEC as long as possible hoping they will start negotiating with them self's bringing down expectations.

Luckily in our case there is a system to prevent this. We the pilot group get to vote on weather this contract is accepted or not.

With this in mind. I ask my fellow Frontier Pilots what do you want to see in this next contract. This is your chance to shape the next contract, to make sure the provisions that matter to you don't fall to the cutting room floor. If you work at other airlines and would like to share you Ideas on this we are always interested in the wisdom of others. Please distinguish yourself from Frontier Pilots.

We can never get everybody on the same page ,but my hope is to reach a relative consensus so we all know what a new CBA must have ,Should have ,and some places in the CBA that we shouldn't push as hard on.

For brevity
1. State what the problem is
Due to the many delays we spend countless hours waiting around the airport for
no compensation
2. what you propose to fix it
We should be paid at least minimum wage for the entire duty period
3. Make an abbreviation (+ for and – against)
+duty pay

If your a lurker but work at F9 you don't need to propose any Ideas you can just state your preferences
-Duty pay, +delay pay, +indsty STD comp, +am/Pm schedule -70hr Min cdt

Just say what you want then we can debate why X is better than Y

 

pretty simple must items.
-standard pay
-5:15 daily guarantee. (No more fake 10 hour 3 days… trips will become efficient again)
-LTD paid for the entire course of a career (standard now among carriers)
- 17% DC that atleast steps up to 18%
- perdiem/international/redeye/overide
-reserve getting X amount guaranteed days off vs what we have no.
- reassign pay in line with everyone else.

there will have to be some strategizing by ALPA to know how other airlines have found holes in our peers contracts and used it against them.

I think the language used in our last contract was weak and for the contract needs to be much more direct and clear…. IE - no room for interpretation of vague examples.

One other thing people should think about is this contract will last us to around 2030-2031. We will have 284 aircraft at that point. We will be 43% larger than we are now. I think as we grow the reassign stuff will become a bigger deal and they will utilize it far more. Having language in there that atleast gives us a large pay increase if they do that to us will be vital.

I'm sure I’m missing stuff…. Are we underpaid? Of course, but we aren’t desperate like last time and I think the pilot group will vote down anything that does not have those items in there. I really hope our MEC does not put a subpar contract to vote because it’s the last thing we need as a collective.

 

1:1.75 Duty Rig, min 5:15 credit/day (not duty and including training), don’t want extension override (bad idea from a safety standpoint), Own Occupation LTD to 65, 18% DC, keep current vacation rules and pay credit, 13 days off for reserves in 31 day month, industry standard A320/321 rates. Surveys I’m sure reflect this sentiment for most.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
all of the above
we will have to be released before we get even close to any of the above….

and with the amount of “all about me sky wh$res” at this place……
fat chance

 

Well, I hate to say that you’re almost certainly correct. I’ve first hand talked to guys on the way out in a few years that have told me directly to my face if it benefits them then they are taking it sorry about your luck. This isn’t a one person one off comment.

The issue is I understand they want to make the most money before retirement. I understand they may have been in the lost decade, but that doesn’t mean you screw over your peers for a quick buck… As we are seeing now there are consequences for skipping over what seemed like minor things previously only to realize that the contract life is most definitely going to be longer then just 5 years.

We are now 2 years into negotiations and on our second mediator, what do we have to show for that? Last I checked absolutely nothing. The industry has spoken, we are not less than our peers… Last time I verified we take the same check ride, follow the same regulations, and are flying the same f’n plane. Albeit with less resources. So when you think about that and have some serious reflection with where we are at is it worth screwing over your peers for a minimum gain just to make a few bucks before you retire or move on to another airline? It hurts the entire industry to be at the bottom when negotiations come around for the other guys.

I haven’t even mentioned the scope issues the company is trying to slide into our new CBA. It’s not just rates we should be concerned about. There are many issues we are all aware of but pay is just one aspect. As many have mentioned before in other threads we could be paid $1000 an hour with zero scope or work rule protections and that $1000 isn’t worth it.

One thing I think people fail to realize is the company claims they can’t afford to do these things and all the other nonsense they say. One thing I’d ask you to keep in mind is that we could take the crappy offer of what they want but then how would you feel if the day after it’s signed they decided to change the model? They are in full control of that. They claim to already be getting and retrofitting big front seats… what’s next WiFi, in seat power, less seats for more spacing, cargo? The list can go on and on of what they could decide to do after we hypothetically sign the dotted line. My point is they will figure out how to manipulate the numbers to continue to survive if we took some subpar offer when in reality they could pay us and give better improvements to our QOL and still make those changes to see what they want to see. We can’t just sell ourselves short because they tell us well we can’t do that. Excuse me but WTF you want to align with the industry in the crappy areas but can’t align overall this isn’t a pick and choose scenario that’s why we have pattern bargaining…

Anyways just something to think about perspective sometimes kills ya before you begin don’t sell yourself short and screw others in the process.

 

I’ll be gone b4 any new turd CBA ……
however
ill fly the required minimum and enjoy ALL of my vac days and retire with ZERO sick time

 

I think too many people assume indigo wants to run an airline. That private equity firm saw a path where they can dump money in and churn profit out. The airline just keeps that profit engine churning and pays for the investment. Anything that makes operating the airline cost more money, they will never go for. Other airlines operate to make money by being the best airline. F9 operates by existing on the hairy edge of being the worst airline without being shut down by the Feds. That mission statement is not conducive to a meaningful new contract

 

It does seem that way. As the operation grows they will see diminishing returns. It looks like we are past that break even point hens the all summer COLAs. I am interested to see what happens in the fall. The new hire pipe line will slow if they start to furlough. Suddenly they may not be able to replace attrition.

They are always going to say they don't have enough money. My first jet job I make as much as the FA. I remember the ground instructor telling us that we had to work a few years to pay off our training costs. Four years later as a captain we were in cruse and the FO burst out "MAN I'm only making $60,000 this year" (first year FO) I was only making 75k.

If you want to know where we are in the pecking order head over to APC's pages for the regionals. I was shocked at what those top end pay rates are these days. It really puts our pay rates in context of the old saying " you get paid not what your worth, but what you demand."

As for me
Pay- I won't accpt less than other an Avg of the big 3 +SW with the caveat of it doesn't have to happen all at once so long as the % increase keeps going up in perpetuity and stops at the Avg# ie 20%now and 10%/year until we reach an Avg if the next contract cycle comes around and suddenly we are 40% lower again in 4 years we are even. It takes pay off the negotiating table for the most part.

Am/PM
Am/PM schedules won't kill the 10 hr 3 day but at least we can go to sleep at the same time every night

Red-eye override =15% 321 over ride 10-20 %

Duty pay I want to be paid at least Minimum Wage for every hour on duty and until I get to the Hotel on trips - Far to many times we time out and procced to sit around the airport for 3+ hrs and we should be compensated for that.

Red eye lines/ Special use airport lines. X% override Red eye RSV = extra days off

The scope clauses are all important

Min Day 5 hrs or more

LDT for pilots , 18% DC, Improve Benefits,

Finally some improvement in work rules for Reserves could be more days off

 

Uh. What ?

 

If we stick to demanding an industry standard contract, which I believe we should, it will force indigo to either run an airline or dump their position and put a for sale sign on the front lawn. Either one sounds fine to me.