Hedging equals better budgeting, not better product. Product is what the customer sees, not the balance sheet. Southwest without a doubt has unequaled fuel hedging, but as a passenger, give me more seat width and DirecTV over over fuel hedging.

 

They've just recently (past week) added 2 more gates in DEN (C31, C33) between AA and US.

Brings their total to 7 (by my math). Rode their jumpseat in there Saturday evening b/c the flight was full. Ops agent told me I'd be up front again on the next leg, before I told him I was getting off in DEN.

Lots of people for a Saturday evening.

 

It's not just the seat and the TV. It's the feeling and the attitude that is abundant on most of their flights. Some people like that more that the seat size. There is also a fair amount of company loyalty in some markets (Dallas for example), and that keeps people in the SWA seats even though other airlines offer cheaper fares and bigger seats.

I have several friends who reufse to fly anyone but SWA, not just b/c they sometimes are the cheapest ticket.

 

"I don't doubt the dedication of SW's employees and management but, when it boils down to it, I still think Frontier's product is better. More comfortable seating, more leg room, multimedia in each seat and assigned seating. All things considered from point A to point B, I'll opt for F9. (BTW; when it comes down to the rank and file employees, pilots, rampers, FA's etc, it is ridiculous to claim that one group is somehow better)"

Zapata -

I've said many times that F9 runs a great airline. I've flown both (F9 and SWA) and was quoted on this forum sometime ago as expressing what a great flight I had on Frontier Airlines. I agree with all of the things that you say about F9. I hope that they can survive and come back stronger than before!
Now....SWA certainly has a business model that seems to be working at this point and time. If someone is wishing for any airline to fail that is really low. I've seen it mentioned before that we as pilots should be looking out for each other; not circling like buzzards.
Thanks for your insightful comments Zapata! Keep them coming.

USMCFLYR

 

Hey Pilot41,

I agree with you on some of those points, and don't take it personally when people look for Southwest to stumble just a little bit.... It's only human nature to root for the underdogs, especially when they used to be the top dogs and SWA is the new 800-pound gorilla (Hey, that's a compliment!).

In this society of unchecked Capitalism, SWA is doing just as should be expected... To grow and prosper. But when viewing this from a Frontier, United, or US Airways pilot's eyes, SWA is a predatory shark. When they smelled US Airways' blood in the water, SWA opened up in PHL, BWI, etc. When United became vulnerable, DEN became the new target. It seems that, as they should, they target the weaker prey. This is not a diss to SWA, just an observation. These certainly were not cities lacking in airline service, just weaker ones with higher priced tickets. Note that they don't go to ATL, MIA, JFK, EWR, etc. So that might explain people's posts hoping for SWA to slip up... even one time. We (Society) love to see the mighty fall, even if just one notch. Proof of this is our reveling in the trevails of Brittney Spears, Paris Hilton, Martha Stewart, Leona Helmsley, ect. I remember when United, Delta, and American were the targets of people wishing that they would be taken down a notch. It's just human nature.

As far as SWA having a better product than Frontier, I must respectfully, but wholeheartedly disagree. I have a ton of friends at SWA, pilots and flight attendants, where I only know a few from Frontier. So it's not personal. But as far as the product goes, I feel that F9 has better service, more room, and cleaner aircraft. I'm not talking about TV,either, although that's nice. For a long trip across the country, I'll take F9 any day if only for the frequent flier miles. On SWA, distance does not matter so I rarely rack up as many tickets on SWA like the other products out there. Also, many passengers resent being herded into lines, as efficient as it may be. That being said, on a short flight without food or room concerns, I encourage my company to use Southwest, as the price is usually better. Remember, I'm speaking as a passenger here.

Also, a lot of people (airline employees and passengers, both), wrongly blame Southwest for the death of customer service in the great race to the bottom in the US airline industry. Right or wrong, competing airlines often name Southwest (by name or by "the competition") as the reason that they must cut niceties or service to cities, similar to the European race to the bottom with Ryanair.

The people make SWA a great company for both passengers and employees and the business model cannot be beat or successfully emulated (it seems). But as far as having a better product? No way.... A nice product but not better.

Respectfully,

B727DRVR

 

While I agree that SWA currently has a great business model that is successful (ie, it makes money), it doesn't make it right. While they have thus far treated their employees with dignity and respect, they have continued to lower the bar for service in the airline industry. The Walmartification of airlines will eventually lead to the Amtrak of the skies...

SWA used to be the little guy who had to work harder to find successful routes. In fact they used that battle cry so often citizens and politicians started to believe them. (eg, see the Write Amendment) They only flew places they knew they could make money. The new SWA is somewhat of a bully. They are now playing the old legacy games where they will loose tons of money on certain routes to gain market share. Their executives are falling into traditional patterns where airline management and their egos try to put others out of business instead of focusing on what they did best.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this dandy over the next 20 years. Will they become the power house legacy or will they refocus on their traditional core of only do something that we can make a profit on?

 

So..... do you think SWA should ignore huge markets like DEN, PHL, etc with blood in the water to be nice?

 

Playing nice has nothing to do with my point. I was discussing the more traditional values of only doing route structures that make money. SWA is loosing cash in Denver. They aren't even competing with F9 or UA. However they have managed to come in and force F9 and UA to cut fares. Good for the cheap consumer who feels it is their right to fly across the country for $49. SWA is playing the "We can bleed money longer than you" game with F9: They are right then can. This is the more traditional and more often failed approach to airline management. This used to be against the core values of the old SWA. Herb is gone and things have changed. The newer SWA is a big dog with big teeth.

 

Hey,

I'm not bashing Southwest... If it weren't them, it would be some other shark. I'm not saying that they should ignore markets, just commenting on the markets that they are now targeting...

What I am saying is that, as a passenger, same leg - same price, all things being equal, Frontier (and Jet Blue, for that matter) offer a classier, better, more comfortable ride, and thus a better product. They have less of a cattle-car mentality, so that is better for passengers that long for the days of old where you weren't lined up like in kindergarden.

As far as profitability and business, Southwest wins hands down. And like a previous poster said, both airlines (all airlines) have great people. It's just harder for some than others to be "great" after they have been beaten down for so long... TWA, US Airways, etc.

Good Luck Frontier, and everyone else, for that matter.

B727DRVR

 

Hi!

I have never flown on Frontier, but from what I've read...

F9 has a better "Quality" product. But, better quality costs more.

SWA has a product that is judged to be a better "Value", which is why they're doing better financially than F9.

cliff
YIP