exerauflyboy5

So im educated, but un educated about the age 60 rule. Since im new to the airline world, and still trying to build the time i need to head to join the commuter craze. i was hoping for some clarification

I understand that there was, a huge push by some to bring the mandatory retirement age to 65, and recently the ALPA hopped on board to help pass it in to regulation. But the ALPA did this against a majority vote of the membership? over 60% of the ALPA said no, and they did it anyways? If this is the jest of what has happened, please let me know cause im a little confused.


To change the subject, incase ive put myself in to the crosshairs here. Has anyone done any aerial survey work?, like flying around oil rigs or flying pipe line? How do you get in to that?

rickair7777

Historically, ALPA has opposed raising the the age above 60 for decades.

Over the last 10-15 years a growing group of politicians, pilots, and even airlines has come to favor raising the age to 65. There are actually several valid reasons for this:

1) The original rule was created in the 1950's through back-door political deals involving the head of American Airlines and some of his political cronies. The sole purpose was to get rid of expensive senior pilots.
2) Since the 1950's the medical technology and health of the population at large has improved dramatically. In 1950 the average person was overweight, didn't exercise, smoked like a chimney, had bacon & eggs for breakfast, a ham sandwich for lunch, steak & potatoes for dinner, and washed it all down with a bottle of gin. Anybody can reasonably conclude that in the modern day we can expect at least an extra five years relative to 1950.
3) Other countries were going to age 65+


The rule almost got changed by congress to 63 in 2001 (pre 9/11), but the whole thing went on a back burner for a while after that.

ALPA did a major survey of it's members a couple years ago, and found that the majority were opposed to an increase (I voted in that one). ALPA then stated that it's official policy was to oppose age 65.

The really BIG change this year was the FAA. There are two ways to change the rule...the FAA can just change it (using some due process) since it is an administrative regulation. Congress can also change it by legislation which would over-ride FAA regulatory powers...all previous attempts to change the rule were all through the congressional route. The FAA never wanted to change the rule since they had nothing to gain, and possible exposure due to the fact the they couldn't prove that age 65 would not increase risk to the flying public...in typical beaurucratic fashion they opted to stick with the safe status quo. This year for some reason the FAA did a complete 180 and initiated the rule making process to increase the age to 65. I'm not exactly sure why, but it probably was a combination of things including possible pilot shortages and the ICAO rules (which allow age 65).

ALPA, under brand-new leadership, did a 180 also and decided to support age 65. Their excuse for this was that if they opposed the inevitable (I agree it is 99% inevitable) they would have no say in how the rule is implemented...so they chose to participate in order to gain some control over the details.

Since ALPA has a history of throwing the younger folks under the bus anytime it will benefit the senioir-most members, a lot of younger guys think this is just all about greed in the senior pilot ranks. The argument is that those guys benefitted from faster upgrades due to age 60, but now they want to get an extra five years at our expense.

Personally I think age 65 is reasonable, but I also think it should be phased in VERY slowly to prevent unfair career disruptions. By slowly I mean over 15+ years.

Slice

I propose if you were hired under Part 121 and the age was 60, you get out at 60. If you're hired Part 121 after the rule change, you go to 65...this way everyone is/was hired under the same rules and had the same expectations going in. The soon to be AARP members would surely say it's unfair though.

mike734

Oh my God, I can't help it. Forgive me.

You are educated? Are you kidding? I'd say you are just a little more than confused.

The ALPA
Incase
My favorite, the comma after a question mark. LOL
un educated.


I'm sorry but if you are not going to put any effort in to checking your post for spelling and punctuation, don't start with, "I'm educated." But, to answer you questions:

1. The ALPA has traditionally been in favor of the age 60 rule because the majority of the ALPA pilots had very rich retirement plans.

2. I don't know the results of the latest poll but I suspect the majority of pilots now favor extending the retirement age past 60.

3. It's not a done deal yet.

4. Survey flying is rare but possible. You've got to be in the right place at the right time. If you want that kind of a job, (to build time) you need to be in the right place. Find companies that do that kind of flying and get hired there or get to know people who work there. It's like flying in Alaska. If you want a job up there, move to Alaska and make it happen.

Now, please, please, please use a little of your education to sound educated.

slaveship

Hey Mike. Why dont you just stop being an ass. The young man had legitimate questions. I guess we shall all bow in front of Mike. We are not worthy.

rickair7777

I was hired under age 60. But let's say I gap my empoyment by one day prior to my next 121 job? What if I was out of flying for 5 years? What if I worked for a 135 turboprop operator that subsequently converted to 121?

Reaasonable idea, but not practical to implement.

mike734

I've said it before. I'll say it again. ONE OF THE REASONS OUR PAY AND WORKING CONDITIONS ARE IN THE BASEMENT IS BECAUSE THE PROFESSION IS BEING OVERRUN WITH IDIOTS.

Besides, I answered his questions.

Spelling counts gentlemen. We all want to make $250,000/yr. How's that going to happen if we can't field an educated negotiation team? If this guy is representative of the caliber of "educated" pilots entering the field, WE ARE SUNK.

Like I said, I'm sorry. I could not help myself. Now why don't you stop enabling guys like this?

contrails

In defense of the member you chastised, "The ALPA" does make grammatical sense in a way because written out it would be "The Airline Pilots Association." I know associations aren't usually written with "the" in front like "The NASA" but it does, in an unusual way, make sense.

the King

They just don't teach kids grammar and spelling these days. Seriously, that's a big problem with our education system. I learned more about grammar in a foreign language class. And with text messaging, Internet chat, and IMs, things aren't getting better.

blastoff

I remember when I was a kid and would ask an airline pilot, how do you become an airline pilot? The answer always was "do well in school and go to college." It seems to me there are a lot of wannabe pilots on here who obviously never stayed in school (college) and/or never bothered to do well either. I don't mind people chastising the uneducated since the uneducated are the ones undercutting pilot wages and bringing the profession down as a whole. Then you look at the guy's screen name and he's obviously an ERAU (College) dropout now trying to become a 300 hour wonder at ATP...fabulous.