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Tool of the day

Old 01-19-2019, 06:21 PM
  #11341  
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Why is it do hard to do things right?

You cannot be disciplined in great things and undisciplined in small things.
--George S. Patton

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbORXEmbnk
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:02 PM
  #11342  
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Originally Posted by hilltopflyer View Post
The controller didn’t not need to say good job champ. No way about it. If he wants proper verbiage I would have asked him what .9 meant.
Good job champ was a bit much, but not knowing "point nine" is official is as bad as the AA guy starting to call himself American Airlines instead of the actual callsign "American."

FWIW, it's unprofessional and potentially dangerous to not use your callsign with the flight number.


AIM 4-3-14

c. The majority of ground control frequencies are in the 121.6-121.9 MHz bandwidth. Ground control frequencies are provided to eliminate frequency congestion on the tower (local control) frequency and are limited to communications between the tower and aircraft on the ground and between the tower and utility vehicles on the airport, provide a clear VHF channel for arriving and departing aircraft. They are used for issuance of taxi information, clearances, and other necessary contacts between the tower and aircraft or other vehicles operated on the airport. A pilot who has just landed should not change from the tower frequency to the ground control frequency until directed to do so by the controller. Normally, only one ground control frequency is assigned at an airport; however, at locations where the amount of traffic so warrants, a second ground control frequency and/or another frequency designated as a clearance delivery frequency, may be assigned.

d. A controller may omit the ground or local control frequency if the controller believes the pilot knows which frequency is in use. If the ground control frequency is in the 121 MHz bandwidth the controller may omit the numbers preceding the decimal point; e.g., 121.7, "CONTACT GROUND POINT SEVEN." However, if any doubt exists as to what frequency is in use, the pilot should promptly request the controller to provide that information.


also from the 7110.65 Air Traffic Control Manual:

2-1-17. RADIO COMMUNICATIONS TRANSFER

1. The facility name or location name and terminal function to be contacted. TERMINAL: Omit the location name when transferring communications to another controller within your facility; except when instructing the aircraft to change frequency for final approach guidance include the name of the facility.

2. Frequency to use except the following may be omitted:

(c) TERMINAL:
(1) Ground or local control frequency if in your opinion the pilot knows which frequency is in use.
(2) The numbers preceding the decimal point if the ground control frequency is in the 121 MHz bandwidth.

EXAMPLE-
“Contact Tower."
“Contact Ground."
“Contact Ground Point Seven."
“Contact Ground, One Two Zero Point Eight."
“Contact Huntington Radio."
“Contact Departure."
“Contact Los Angeles Center, One Two Three Point Four."
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:20 PM
  #11343  
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Where is “ground point nine” in the pilot -controller glossary. The AA guy was a tool but so was the controller.

Didn’t see it there, however the AIM paragraph 4-3-14d and 7110.65 (ATC order) paragraph 3-10-9 example shows it.

I’ve seen various phaseology issues (as a controller) over the years become major emphasis items that could be cause for displinary items. I’ve seen others that are really important that may not seem obvious to a pilot (I’ve flown part 121 as well). Finally there are guys who got burned by a particular readback/hearback error who are very particular with what they need to hear.

Bottom line almost everyone is just trying to do the job as best they can, we all occasionally take short cuts. If a pilot or controller asks for something, there is usually a good reason.
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:24 PM
  #11344  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
Good job champ was a bit much, but not knowing "point nine" is official is as bad as the AA guy starting to call himself American Airlines instead of the actual callsign "American."

FWIW, it's unprofessional and potentially dangerous to not use your callsign with the flight number.


AIM 4-3-14

c. The majority of ground control frequencies are in the 121.6-121.9 MHz bandwidth. Ground control frequencies are provided to eliminate frequency congestion on the tower (local control) frequency and are limited to communications between the tower and aircraft on the ground and between the tower and utility vehicles on the airport, provide a clear VHF channel for arriving and departing aircraft. They are used for issuance of taxi information, clearances, and other necessary contacts between the tower and aircraft or other vehicles operated on the airport. A pilot who has just landed should not change from the tower frequency to the ground control frequency until directed to do so by the controller. Normally, only one ground control frequency is assigned at an airport; however, at locations where the amount of traffic so warrants, a second ground control frequency and/or another frequency designated as a clearance delivery frequency, may be assigned.

d. A controller may omit the ground or local control frequency if the controller believes the pilot knows which frequency is in use. If the ground control frequency is in the 121 MHz bandwidth the controller may omit the numbers preceding the decimal point; e.g., 121.7, "CONTACT GROUND POINT SEVEN." However, if any doubt exists as to what frequency is in use, the pilot should promptly request the controller to provide that information.


also from the 7110.65 Air Traffic Control Manual:

2-1-17. RADIO COMMUNICATIONS TRANSFER

1. The facility name or location name and terminal function to be contacted. TERMINAL: Omit the location name when transferring communications to another controller within your facility; except when instructing the aircraft to change frequency for final approach guidance include the name of the facility.

2. Frequency to use except the following may be omitted:

(c) TERMINAL:
(1) Ground or local control frequency if in your opinion the pilot knows which frequency is in use.
(2) The numbers preceding the decimal point if the ground control frequency is in the 121 MHz bandwidth.

EXAMPLE-
“Contact Tower."
“Contact Ground."
“Contact Ground Point Seven."
“Contact Ground, One Two Zero Point Eight."
“Contact Huntington Radio."
“Contact Departure."
“Contact Los Angeles Center, One Two Three Point Four."
But in your point it says he can say point seven if he assumes the pilot knows that the ground is on 121.9 or familiar with the airport. We all know what assuming does.
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:41 PM
  #11345  
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The pilot didn’t ask for the frequency, so the controller must’ve been correct in his “assumption.”

And the controller’s guidance just says he can do it. His guidance says nothing about if he thinks the pilot knows it. That’s only if he skips the frequency completely, as in, “American 2601, contact ground.”
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:39 PM
  #11346  
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Jesus people. Can’t we all just take up fly fishing or something and chill?!
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:29 PM
  #11347  
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Have an ATC friend, he said after a rash of incidents and near misses, they are strict on hold short instructions. While other instructions like “American 101 contact departure” can be met with a “Goodday, 101.” there is zero room on a runway hold short instruction. They need a readback of 4 things, the hold short verbiage itself, the runway, callsign, flight number. Miss any part of those on a hold short instruction, they will ask you to repeat properly.

“Nice job champ” was deserved after the pilot enunciated the incorrect “American Airlines” on purpose.
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:49 AM
  #11348  
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
The "good job champ" was not part of his job.
Y’all realize that the controller is having his paycheck held hostage indefinitely by a bunch of whiny idiots in DC, right? I can imagine they’re feeling a little testy especially when dealing with snarky comments from an old fart making 300k/yr who’d walk off the job if his damn crew meal wasn’t on board. 🙄🙄
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:41 AM
  #11349  
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Originally Posted by Rahlifer View Post
Y’all realize that the controller is having his paycheck held hostage indefinitely by a bunch of whiny idiots in DC, right? I can imagine they’re feeling a little testy especially when dealing with snarky comments from an old fart making 300k/yr who’d walk off the job if his damn crew meal wasn’t on board. 🙄🙄
Sure. I didn't say it was a huge deal. But I was directly replying to someone who said that he way only doing his job.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:23 AM
  #11350  
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Originally Posted by hilltopflyer View Post
But in your point it says he can say point seven if he assumes the pilot knows that the ground is on 121.9 or familiar with the airport. We all know what assuming does.
No, he is not assuming that. Every pilot should know that the phraseology "contact ground point nine." means 121.9. Otherwise, if he did say "contact ground.", then that would be assuming.
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