USMCFLYR

But how do you know?
You might have discovered something that you loved.
So it would be OK for you to be *close minded* to other tracks that didn't interest you, but someone who did go into military flight training only wanting to fly fighters would be egotistical?
It sounds to me like you have some pre-conceived idea about the fighter/attack communities based on some interaction or too many movies maybe?

Adlerdriver

Actually a "shiny" fighter would get shot down..... they're usually dull gray.

You don't understand the "egotistic want" because it's a stereotype you bought into, not reality.

I cared a great deal about what I flew and for me, that made all the difference. Those who didn't care usually didn't get to choose.

xjtguy

True, don't disagree with that point, but you're overlooking the big picture of what the data represents.

Again, true. But there were more links in the error chain than what you mention.

I DON'T list anything, it's simply data compiled, and ONLY of certain airlines

I don't believe Jamaica Bay happened in that time frame, but whatever.

I see your points, but AGAIN, you're overlooking the big picture.

But to cut to the chase, find a U.S. airline that that suffered as many hull losses/deaths as the highest ones on the list. Especially KAL and China. Even with the AA wrecks in the 90's, they don't even come close to the bent metal/smoking holes in the ground/body count.

And if you research the many of KAL's, it was CRM issues.

UAL T38 Phlyer

If you had included my next sentence in the quote you used, you could answer your own question.

I said people are happiest when they have goals and challenges that could be surmounted. If they try and fail, they are not happy.

I didn't say if you were a heavy-driver (hypothetically) you weren't trying to do your best in that role...your words; not mine.

But for some reason, you found the fighter role either not suited to you, or perhaps, beyond your reach. 'Not suited' could mean not wanting to devote decades to constant study, to scathing criticism from your 'friends,' to physical ailments like neck/back pain, hemorrhoids, hearing loss, and a wrinkled face from always wearing an oxygen mask, to minimal free time for family, friends, etc. It means you decided to attain the best elsewhere: family, free time, travel, physical health, more flight hours, etc.

It could also mean you 'didn't want to kill people.' I've seen this in two T-38 students and it infuriates me. If you are interested in military flying, it means you accept the stark reality that whether you are the guy pulling the trigger, the guy delivering the gas, or the Cargo guy who brought the bombs to your base, everyone has a hand in 'killing people.'

I don't know your reason, nor do I need to know. I do find it curious that you found it necessary to mock-bash anyone with an interest in fighters ("Oooh, a shiny fighter"). Your implication with that taunt is that a real professional pilot would want to do what you were interested in.

I didn't imply nor define 'best;' the military services did say that flying fighters is more difficult. Both the Air Force and Navy say you have to perform to a certain level in Primary training to be considered for the possibility of a fighter (or bomber in the Air Force). Not everyone can do it. It doesn't always have anything to do with being bright or driven. It isn't always about how smart, but rather, how quick: mental agility.

When I fly airliners, I bring that same attitude. I want to do the best I can do. And yeah, if I can show the Captain up on his landings, that's fun too. But I'm glad I had my run in fighters, too. I learned a lot more about flying there....and about myself.

shy (comparative shier or shyer, superlative shiest or shyest)

1. Easily frightened; timid. a shy bird.
2. Reserved; disinclined to familiar approach. He is very shy with strangers.
3. Cautious; wary; suspicious
4. Reticent

Not so sure about your screen-name.....


To get this thread back on-course: I believe that if Gulfstream Girl were given an unusual attitude in the sim of 40 degrees up; 135 degrees of bank, and airspeed south of 100 kts, she would crash, regardless of how much altitude she had to start with.


But most Air Force or Navy-trained pilots would know what to do, even with only 250 hours.

xjtguy

I remember when I took a human factors/safety course in college. Granted, it was the early 90's, and things are a little different than now in some regards.

But a study was done, and much of it is validated by many of the hiring numbers as far as hours/experience goes in the pre 9/11 hiring spree. The study concerned when pilots learning curves start to get less steep and start to become more horizontal in relation to hours. Naturally, it's all based on averages and isn't a one size fits all.

A single seat/tactical jet pilot starts to hit that point somewhere around the thousand hour point. Naturally, due to the fact that the sorties are short, with lots of intensity crammed into the short duration of the flights. They are PIC 100% of the time, the get ALL the approaches, landing, as well as EVERYTHING else pertinent to the platforms. Again, just an average. Sure, some may be lower, others higher.

Military heavy/multi crew was naturally higher (but not that much) due to longer flight segments, not always the one shooting the approach and landing, flying during the aerial refuel, etc etc etc. Again, just an average. Sure, some may be lower, others higher.

A civilian was in the in the 3-5k range, with at least 1-2K of that as PIC. Whether it was piston 135 or turbine 121, whatever. Hence a broader range of time. As well as due to obvious reasons. Selection/training not nearly the same as mil, training not nearly the same as mil. Potential of repetitive flying, doing the SAME thing over and over again, etc. The guy flying 1-2-3 segments daily in a fair weather region doesn't get the same intensity level that one flying 5-6-7 segments in a weather intensive region, etc. Again, just an average. Some may be lower, others higher.

But yes, it ties into the point. When a pilot steps into an airliner, the skill set is (supposed) to be honed at that point.

ShyGuy

Grew up near the Offut AFB. I knew. Air shows annually drew me to my interests, and it wasn't the fighters.

ShyGuy

Correction, I didn't mean Jamaica Bay, I meant Belle Harbor. The 2001 Airbus crash. Your list had China Airlines at 755 and number 2 TAM at 336. Two AA crashes alone top the deaths of the #2 airline, AA 191 and AA 587 killed 531 people alone, not including deaths on the ground.

4 AA accidents alone:

AA 191 ORD - 271 on plane
AA 965 Cali - 155
AA 420 - 11
AA 587 - 260

= 697 dead on plane, not including any ground deaths. Throw in the ground deaths, it's 700+ on these 4 accidents alone.

I agree China Airlines had serious issues and was the world's unsafest airline. They were having a full hull loss every couple years, and widebodies at that.

What I will say is that we have a very safe aviation industry in the USA, but because of rules and regulations that were ALL written in blood with the jet crashes we've had in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Every decade, it got progressively safer, as measured by less deaths. The most recent decade 2000-2009 in the USA was one of the safest in the world for major airlines, excluding 9/11 attacks. The only major airline crash was the AA 587 rudder slammer.

However, the 2000-2009 decade was a terrible one for regional airlines. Executive Airlines in Wilkes Barre, Corporate Airlines in Kirksville, Comair LEX, Pinnacle FL410, Ocean Chalk, Air Midwest, Colgan (x2).

ShyGuy

UAL T38, I wouldn't pass the medical for the Air force (and other brances) so that route ended for me at a young age 18-22, somewhere in there. But even if I entered the military, I had always wanted the airlines and the plan was to go to the military, fly transport/tankers, and then later down the road go for the airlines.


And my name ShyGuy is from this character in Mario. If you wikipedia search ShyGuy, that is what comes up.

These are ShyGuy:






Anyway, enough thread hijack, and back to Gulfstream Girl..............................

bcrosier

XJT - Excellent post! I was discussing almost this exact subject a while back with colleagues at the schoolhouse. We were all pretty much in agreement on exactly what you've posted above - and I doubt anyone was familiar with the study you mentioned (certainly not all of us). On average, there is a pronounced difference in the ability to take in the big picture.

Shy - I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in a training environment working with crews from around the world. The picture is definitely different than the one you would like to paint, and fundamental skills are very much a part of that.

TonyC

Offutt -- two ts.

I remember the airshow there where I took a T-37 for static display, then guarded it and answered questions all day long. There was a nice pyrotechnic display on the side of the runway opposite the crowd that coincided with the low passes of a variety of warbirds. A gentleman standing near my airplane was beside himself with worry about the bombs that were going off. "Are those nuclear bombs?" "Are we going to have fallout?" "Aren't those dangerous with that radiation?" "Are we too close?" At first I thought that he was asking if the simulations were of nuclear bombs. Then I realized he thought they were real bombs. His questions were because he didn't know if they were nuclear. I had to explain they were just big firecrackers.


After he walked away, I realized he's the kind of guy who always votes.


And he's an expert about military hardware, because he attended an airshow.






.