I agree with this completely. There is only so much you can do in a 737. HAL does so much well that SWA cannot even begin to do.

I work for SWA and I think HAL has nothing to lose in this venture at all. Think ahead...way ahead. You guys are flying further and further and have 787s on the horizon. No way swa can compete with that worldwide reach.

That’s why HAL would be a target for acquisition.

Where do you get your info? The transatlantic market is doing great and legacy airlines are adding flights. NAI is losing their ass on the transatlantic market and it’s putting what was a successful airline at risk of failure. They are now dropping many transatlantic routes trying to stem the bleeding.

I know this is a popular opinion among many of our fellow SWA pilots turned cockpit CEOs who think that we are going to destroy everyone who flies to Hawaii. I do not believe it is true for many of my own cockpit CEO reasons.
I liken it to the mafia, or maybe the SWA/Delta detente in ATL/LAX. When everyone is making money, why screw it up? The things that make Hawaiian great cannot be done by Southwest in its current form (see our sad attempt at big boy international in Mexico City). They also go so far against the way SWA operates that there is zero chance that our current crop of managers would ever buy off on merging the two companies.

Bingo. Unfortunately this is totally true. The mindset in Dallas is that we’re going to continue to grow with the B737 and ONLY the B737 and not expand past near international destinations. The execs at the top of the pyramid have this mindset. The only one that’s chomping at the bit to get bigger airplanes and expand to further destinations is EVP CRO Andrew Watterson (former route planning guy for Hawaiian coincidentally). He’s been vocal about that in the past and has also stated that the higher ups have no interest in it, but that “They won’t be around forever”.

Isn’t Tom Nealon also pro-bigger plane?

Not sure. I haven’t heard that. I seem to recall him being pro technology. If so he must be pulling his hair out and rolling his eyes quite frequent just like the rest of us.

Hopefully he’s next in line after GK.

Wow brother. Don’t project your stuff on to me. I’m not your CEO/mafia whipping boy, or ETOPS flag waver either. My name ain’t on that list.

It would make more sense to me to view Hawaiian as an acquisition than to dive into the current Alaska/Virgin debacle.

Don’t forget that airlines also become major shareholders in other carriers without a full purchase.

We are all just spitballing here. I’m the guy that doesn’t believe most airline speculation until the gear is in the well and I’m in the seat.

That post wasn’t meant as a stab at you. My apologies if you took it that way. I was just stating my own pilot/CEO opinion which is exactly what you were doing, so I am equally guilty.
I think we agree more than we disagree. I think this is a positive step for our airline, but I don’t think it is going to change anyone’s game like some of our cheerleader brethren.

Neither could Mesa go! with $19 & $29 interisland fares, but that's what they charged----knowing that both HA & AQ were hungry for cash after chapter 11 filings. And, unfortunately, Aloha ran out of cash and shut down.

This statement is why you should stay in the cockpit. I guess you have clearly missed the fact that SWA is the largest US carrier. I guess you are stuck on an island and have no clue what's actually going on back here on the mainland! Those passengers will come from somewhere! I'd bet Hawaiian will be gone within 3 years IF SWA floods the market place as they have planned. Update your Resume!

"I'd bet Hawaiian will be gone within 3 years IF SWA floods the market place as they have planned. Update your Resume!"

Didnʻt realize SWA was going to fly South Pacific and Japan routes too.

This whole entry into Hawaii is the expansion of the battle of California between AS and SWA and SWA appears to be winning that one pretty handily so far.

In comparison to both AS and SWA, Hawaiian is small enough that it would behoove it to be smart about what they do. If Hawaiian concentrates on Japan and long haul routes, they'll do OK. If they decide to take on SWA, they'll end up in Chapter 11 again, if not like Aloha. Smart money would preserve a market share and pare the losses to concentrate on long haul. But then again, lots of egos in the airline business that led to some excellent companies going under.

Finally a silver-lining. The people who have those worthless miles on Southwest can finally go to a worthwhile destination.

Real question is...


Will Southwest provide the first passengers with fake leis or a $5 set of snorkel masks....

This whole Hawaii thing has really brought out the worst in a lot of my coworkers at SWA. I apologize for their bravado and ridiculous statements.
Don’t worry, Hawaiian and Alaska guys, we can’t even sell itineraries to and from the east coast due to our awesome 1970s back end tech. Rest easy.
I think everyone is going to do well in a market that has a lot of room for competition.

Just from Facebook comments alone, I think some of the luster and excitement has worn of. Many everyday passengers are realizing that other than introductory fares, many better deals can be found on UA, AK, HA etc. And a lot of comments complain about not being able to get anywhere besides 4 cities in CA. And if you do a SEA-HNL flight on SWA it's quite a bit more and takes much longer with a layover in OAK.

And in reality, it'll make interisland commuting easier for many of our pilots, cause we're full as sh!t most days at common commute times. So we do thank you all for that.

If you've ever flown on a Hawaiian flight you'd realize how much more class we do it with than say Spirit or most US airlines for that matter. Granted we don't have FA's telling jokes all flight, but we have very attentive flight crews who provide a very relaxing and pleasant experience.

If you are at Spirit, enjoy, they are a really great airline

Unfortunately the flying public has voted consistently for the past couple of decades that all they care about is the rock bottom price tag, save perhaps the business traveler or upper end passenger.

Southwest's rise, and now Spirit's meteoric expansion is proof positive of this fact. Any dollar saved on the miserable experience of air travel is a dollar that can be spent elsewhere on vacation. The ULCC sector is proof positive of this.

Few things make me cringe more than SWA FAs with their unprofessional PAs, jokes that get OOOOOLD, and worst of all is during the boarding process the disrespectful (to our customers) PAs to get them to sit down quickly so we can get out on time. Seriously disrespectful, rude and completely unprofessional, not to mention very cringeworthy.

Who the F is this guy!!!???

It is very difficult to disagree with this. Saving some cash is a priority even for many of the upper middle or upper class.

My only rebuttal would be that for many, Hawaii is a once in a lifetime vacation/honeymoon etc. Who wants to start their dream vacation off being miserable?

It is also a very expensive place to visit. Food, lodging, or visiting multiple islands is much more expensive than say Florida or Vegas.( And in general our tourists are a bit higher up on the totem poll than typical Florida vacationers) And due to the limited lodging options it's not like you can just find a Motel 8 for $35... A crappy airport hotel at the HNL airport runs around $180/night for example. Hawaii is not a vacation destination for the low end vacationers trying to do a budget vacation. IE: your typical Spirit passenger. (not a knock on Spirit just a generalization)

If you're taking this once in a lifetime vacation/honeymoon, you may spend the extra $$ for a flight on a more traditional airline with more perks. In Hawaiian's case, an authentic experience where the FA's can actually give you real tips or pronounce locations and names correctly. An airline that makes you feel like your vacation has started at your departure airport. (a little overly dramatic, just making a point).

On Hawaiian it's very common to hear the Hawaiian Language spoken, and spoken correctly. Sure you may get an Aloha or Mahalo on SWA, hell even Spirit, but for a real local experience it's Hawaiian or nothing.

I've traveled in the back on every airline, and although I am biased, the experience on Hawaiian is for the most part better. I know SWA is entertaining at times, for me, I'd grow tired of corny jokes ad nauseum.

Based on the pure size of SWA, they will be able to flood the market. It's whether or not they intend to really make money over here is the question. Or can they make more money in a different market? Because West Coast-Hawaii is a low yield market to begin with.

If they put a crew base out here, and base 15-20 interisland dedicated a/c here, then all bets are off.. But what many of the pilots at SWA haven't witnessed yet is our astounding lack of gate space on all islands.

I think we'll be fine, the Facebook posters of the world are all up in arms about some $30 inter-island ticket that they somehow cannot find because the sale was for maybe 2 days and they sold out quickly. And many comments have turned negative because they've noticed higher fares on SWA vs HA for the remaining seats. Nobody is saying they want to ride on SWA, they are more excited that fares on HA, AK, or UA may drop a bit.

Bottom line, flying on Hawaiian vs SWA are two completely different business models.

Don’t forget the off key singing. [emoji2961]


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Listen. I know you’re grasping st something, anything really, to try and hope this ends well for you, but a higher class travel experience to Hawaii on HAL is...laughable.

For one, it sucks in the back of all airliners on long legs. Hawaiian is no different. Yes, I’ve ridden many times.

For another, no one who has two brain cells to rub together is hoping to find an FA who can give them tips on local activities and food on a trip as expensive as an extended Hawaiian vacation.

And lastly, saving $100 each way per passenger (or whatever the cost will be) probably adds up to an hotel extra night on one of the islands.

No, people won’t pay extra to get a smidgeon of percieved service on HAL. The ones with truly disposable income to do so aren’t considering riding on any LCC.

SWA is transport for the masses, or at least they still play at it while largely charging legacy fares, and getting Joe and Susie Wal Mart to the islands is exactly what their mission is all about.

Going to see the mouse in Florida is many people’s dream vacation with their kids, and they cram themselves into a yellow 321 with infants in their laps by the bushel because that modicum of saved cash means that they can do an extra activity while in Orlando or squeeze in another night or two. Hawaii is really no different.

On the basis of half-a$$ed conjecture I’d say HAL is in a lot of trouble unless they radically change their model or partner with someone on the mainland to help feed them. SWA will run them into the ground once they get the inter island bit going with corny jokes and mispronounced Mahalo’s and all.

Another phenomenon that I’d like explained is the culture of SWA FAs using the PA to talk to each other while PAX are on board instead of using the interphone.

The most unprofessional example I’ve witnessed was just a couple of months ago when I was DHing on a full -800. They had just opened the cabin door and over the PA the A (Lead) announces, “Susie, there’s a supervisor on the jetway waiting for you. Make sure you see her on the way out.”

Wtf?! Are they not teaching them in training what’s appropriate and not appropriate in front of PAX? Or do they not have any inkling that stuff like this is totally amateur, unprofessional, etc.?

No doubt that Hawaiian will take a ding with SWA entering the market (as will Alaska), but man.......what a different product :rolleyes:

You're 100% correct. People don't want to pay to fly. When NK packs 180+ in a A320 good luck price matching and staying business long term. Factor in when times get tough the ULCC will grow more because price point! Fact is you sure in the hell don't want SWA anywhere near the Hawaiian market if you want to stay in business. SWA will flood inter island and suck up a lot of passengers!!

What is the purpose of these two posts? Your (our) job is to take pax from point A to point B. Company pride is great. I have it, as well. But I'll be darned if I'll ever rub a pilot from another carrier's nose in my "company pride." Especially on an anonymous forum. That's just chicken$**t.

I’d work on your reading comprehension, because that post had nothing to do with company pride. In fact, that thought is nearly 180 degrees off from the point.

The point was to put away the notion that HAL has something so special to offer that the masses will pay extra to ride them. Or that Hawaii itself will lead to travelers splurging to get there in style. People with the disposable income to do those things aren’t shopping between HAL and SWA.

It sucks in the back of all airliners on extended flights. ALL of them. An economy seat is an economy seat, and no amount of flowers, correct local diction or knowledge is going o win against the almighty dollar. And it certainly won’t win against being able to spend another night at the Grand Wailea due to cost savings on travel. This isn’t the luxury suite on an ocean liner where the trip is part of the experience. It’s steerage. Plain and simple.

If Hawaiian had Mint style airplanes or some of the fancy AA 321T’s as their base product then I’d agree with the premise. But that’s not their product, and SWA darn well knows it. And they play for keeps.

Having said that, I’d be truly surprised if the HAL management team hasn’t been burning the midnight oil on strategies and counters since SWA made their intentions known. More than anything I’m interested to see what they do and what it leads to, because standing their ground strategically will just get them steamrolled.

I think my comprehension is just fine.

No. It’s not. I don’t work for SWA. You made that leap, and it was a poor one. SWA is the 800lb gorilla of the LCC world, and they just crawled into the cage with HAL. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to see what the likley outcome is without some pretty impressive ninjery on HAL’s part.

Why do you think this is?

$$$$$. It's affordable for the affluent, but those aren't the many. It's likely a bucket list trip for lower middle class in this country. Especially after watching every episode of Hawaii Five-Oh reboot.

Exactly. And the accessibility of Hawaii is changing.

And so are hotel prices, if you follow the economic trail. And I don't mean they're going down.

None of us are financial wizards, but I think HA will be ok. Sure we’ll lose a little west coast and interisland traffic. But until you see DL, AA, UA, B6, KE, JL, etc. flight numbers on WN interisland flights, we’ll continue to fly the bulk of the load. There is a reason that the other legacies have never flown interisland, the margins just aren’t worth it. It’s not that you can’t make a profit, but dedicating the iron to a lower margin route is not a good business practice. Our west coast fares are almost never the cheapest, far from it. But people continue to fly with us, so there must be something to our cabin service that people like. It certainly isn’t my award winning PAs.

The problem with that thought is that SWA is going to fly a significant portion of your customer base to HI, and then send them inter island, and many of the other legacies just fly straight to Lihue or wherever these days rather than needing a one hopper from HNL. And supposing I took x airline to Lihue or wherever and wanted a Maui excursion I’m probably just fine with taking a cheap SWA flight instead of HAL even if they butcher the local dialect and don’t serve POG.

You’re still going to have feed from others, but this is a slim profit margin industry to begin with. I’m not hoping you fail, but this isn’t some regional joining the fray. It’s the largest domestic carrier in the US. If HAL is fine then I think it will be because they altered their model significantly, partnered up or something else that’s not readily apparent. It won’t be because the cabin service with attractive Hawaiians is so nice.

Have you ever been to Hawaii? Try look for a hotel for under $200 a night, guarantee it will be the best Western or airport hotel two blocks from the airport. You can have cheap accessibility but not cheap stay.

Side note. Everyone is worried about HA, how about the rest of the competition that Flys to Hawaii. Alaska, the big 3?

Have you looked at SWA's anticipated flight schedule? They are going to be doing the exact same service as every other airline coming from the West Coast. OAK-HNL,OGG, KOA, LIH.. same with their other West Coast cities.. The exact same flying as AK, UA, AA, DL, HA... They haven't discovered some secret formula to doing Hawaii flights..

And if you take a real look at SWA tix prices, they are not cheaper than other airlines on many routes. It's all based on what day, time etc. I've found many OAK-HNL tix that are $100 more on SWA. Same with interisland. Picked a day at the end of April.. HA $80, SWA $179 OGG -HNL one way. SWA being the lowest cost is a myth based on good marketing. They are offering introductory fares, nothing new here or unexpected.

If anything the only airline that utilizes long haul to Inter-Island connected flying is Hawaiian... You forget about our extensive network to the East.. Japan, Australia, S.Pacific, NZ, S.Korea...And if and when the JAL JV goes through that may be set to increase even more. Also we codeshare with many carriers especially interisland. Off the top of my head I've watched my Inter Island flights advertise as DL, Korean Air , JAL, and UA. Think you're ever gonna see a plane full of Japanese passengers board a SWA flight?

What SWA is gonna do is compete with every carrier from the West Coast and compete with Hawaiian (and codeshares with Korean, JAL, UA, DL etc) on interisland. The only passengers SWA is gonna serve on their interisland, are locals shopping for fares. If the cheaper ticket for a particular time is on Hawaiian, they will go with Hawaiian and vice versa. Initially SWA will get some connecting SWA passengers, but once their non-stops are up and running, it will cannibalize some of their inter island traffic.. Same thing happened when HA started doing more outer island-west coast flying.

Then there is the elephant in the room.. Gate space.

No kidding... crew rate for the BestW. or HNL airport hotel is in the $150 range.. not cheap.

Grand Wailea is typically $500+ a night for a standard room. Same with every other hotel in Kihei or Kaanapali... VRBO's are the only way someone that needs a $100 RT tix to get to Hawaii or not go, will be able to afford a Hawaii trip. Most VRBO's in Kihei are in the $150/night range.. and that's Mauka side of S.Kihei Rd.. Something on the water will be $200+.

The SWA love fest would be more plausible if every single ticket was $100RT.. but we all know that is not the case.

What I foresee happening is AK pulling back some of their flights to Hawaii. Which will keep available seats to the Islands somewhat in check. Hawaiian will benefit from the other Legacy carriers disdain for SWA.

Interesting no one mentions baggage fees when comparing fares...