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RJSAviator76
You make good points, and knowing PC real well, had I wanted to work for HAL I would be right now. I needed to make up the loss of career earnings, and that just wasn’t gonna happen at Hawaiian. |
Originally Posted by CGfalconHerc
(Post 2780379)
Easy guys..dont give up the ship!
SWA came to LGA..BFD. SWA came to DCA..BFD. SWA came to ATL..BFD! Just hang in there..the locals will be loyal..you have a great airline.. Jmho...CG Believe me, my concern is not just SWA. IMHO, we’ve hit critical mass here. SWA is just “one more” nail in the proverbial lid. SWA is just the latest company to make a run on Hawaii. I agree, we’ve got a great, possibly the best product in the Western world. It’s a great bunch of people. When I say we’ve hit critical mass, the world has grown up around us and by default we’ve gotten too small. Sooner or later, everything has to change. My fear is that if we don’t adapt and overcome, AKA merge and get bigger, One of these days one of the big four could simply fart and blow us off the map. Nothing lasts Forever. Let’s face it, we’ve had an 89 year run so far and are still basically the original incarnation of the founding day. That’s unheard of nowadays. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to merge with someone. Honestly though, I think our only two choices at this stage are to merge and move on, or go the way of eastern, Pan Am, or TWA. I only see one of those two outcomes in the next 5 to 10 years. Given the choice, I’ll take the merge. |
Originally Posted by Hawaiian 5O
(Post 2781525)
Believe me, my concern is not just SWA. IMHO, we’ve hit critical mass here. SWA is just “one more” nail in the proverbial lid. SWA is just the latest company to make a run on Hawaii.
I agree, we’ve got a great, possibly the best product in the Western world. It’s a great bunch of people. When I say we’ve hit critical mass, the world has grown up around us and by default we’ve gotten too small. Sooner or later, everything has to change. My fear is that if we don’t adapt and overcome, AKA merge and get bigger, One of these days one of the big four could simply fart and blow us off the map. Nothing lasts Forever. Let’s face it, we’ve had an 89 year run so far and are still basically the original incarnation of the founding day. That’s unheard of nowadays. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to merge with someone. Honestly though, I think our only two choices at this stage are to merge and move on, or go the way of eastern, Pan Am, or TWA. I only see one of those two outcomes in the next 5 to 10 years. Given the choice, I’ll take the merge. Like button |
Originally Posted by Hawaiian 5O
(Post 2781525)
Believe me, my concern is not just SWA. IMHO, we’ve hit critical mass here. SWA is just “one more” nail in the proverbial lid. SWA is just the latest company to make a run on Hawaii.
I agree, we’ve got a great, possibly the best product in the Western world. It’s a great bunch of people. When I say we’ve hit critical mass, the world has grown up around us and by default we’ve gotten too small. Sooner or later, everything has to change. My fear is that if we don’t adapt and overcome, AKA merge and get bigger, One of these days one of the big four could simply fart and blow us off the map. Nothing lasts Forever. Let’s face it, we’ve had an 89 year run so far and are still basically the original incarnation of the founding day. That’s unheard of nowadays. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to merge with someone. Honestly though, I think our only two choices at this stage are to merge and move on, or go the way of eastern, Pan Am, or TWA. I only see one of those two outcomes in the next 5 to 10 years. Given the choice, I’ll take the merge. |
Originally Posted by Hawaiian 5O
(Post 2778003)
Lots of good points from my HAL brothers.
After a couple nights of sleeping on this, I’m still convinced at least for the first couple of years the pilots that need to be worried have an Eskimo on their tail. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Alaska backing out some, and doing a couple more flights to Guadalajara every day like they used to before they found HI. SWA guys still plenty welcome on the jumpseat. Lord knows I’ve Jumped on you guys many times in the past. Let’s keep this civil and let our managements figure it out. Kingairfun really brings up some great points. Other airlines can bring all the planes out here they want to, but if they don’t have any place to park them it’s not going to help. Gate space at the Hawaii airports ALREADY looks like the parking lot of an outlet mall on Black Friday. That’s on a normal day. Inter island will be more competitive, but from the mainland southwest passengers and Hawaiian passengers are two different types of people. NOTE: This is not a slam of anyone’s passengers. It’s a simple statement of fact. The target off of the mainland is Alaska, not Hawaiian. Like Kingair says, Most passengers that fly Hawaiian fly because they like Hawaiian not because they are chasing low fares. They are after a specific product. With that said. No one does what Southwest does better than Southwest. At the same time, no one does what Hawaiian does better than Hawaiian. There’s room for both of us. It’s the others that should be worried. Let’s give this a year or two and see where it shakes out. Until then, you guys might want to take this to the Alaska sub forum. [emoji481] |
What I think-
Think RASM. Big driver for airlines and their shareholders is RASM. Gotta increase RASM in any way possible. However, flights from mainland to/from the islands are RASM killers. They are some very long stage lengths. So, how do you offset that? These flights are frequent flyer miles/points cache dumps. A significant amount of miles/points are used during trips to/from the islands, and the airlines love shedding those miles off their books. This way the airlines can keep higher fares on shorter flights with any significant higher RASM. Think MSY around Mardi Gras, AUS during SXSW, LAS for CES, Super Bowl, or any other event that creates a big spike in demand for air travel (thus higher fares). In addition to a significantly higher fare, increased service also is common to these high yield events. For example, what was once a 3x/day service now becomes a 5x/day and the airlines ASM increases by 66% with a RASM increase of 85%, (hypothetically). If passengers use miles/points during these high yield events destroys RASM. Especially when the airline advertises “No Black Out Days!” But with the addition of Hawaii flights, there will now be significantly less miles/points for customers to burn through. The actual cash money brought in by AAL, UAL, DAL, AAG, etc is significantly lower, when considering the distance flown. The only real revenue generation with these flights comes in the freight/mail in the belly. |
Originally Posted by kingairfun
(Post 2780764)
I noticed the SWA thread has been quiet for 2 days now... Hmm wonder if your "long haul" MAX8 has anything to do with it? The CULT is strong over there... "First rule of SWA......we don't talk about SWA when there is negative news" |
Originally Posted by 4thLevel
(Post 2783285)
You do realize we aren't using the MAX for Hawaii - right?
But you DO realize the planes you are/were going to fly to Hawaii are probably partially predicated being freed up by MAX operations. Looks like you guys might be short on planes for a bit to start a new route, unless you draw down somewhere else. Good chance some of your Hawaii planes may need to remain on their current route until the MAX is de-bugged. Key word is “may”. Granted, there were delays with the A321 also. Boeing will get this fixed. Who knows. Time will tell. |
Originally Posted by Hawaiian 5O
(Post 2783310)
Good chance some of your Hawaii planes may need to remain on their current route until the MAX is de-bugged. Key word is “may”.
If the MAX is down for an extended amount of time, NG retirements will be halted. |
So... new goal...
How many SWA guys can we get to comment on HA and AK threads... For an airline that does really well, you guys sure get defensive if anyone makes a negative comment.:rolleyes: And the MAX was never intended for Hawaii? Phoenix, Denver.. all those possible route talks are for the -700/-800? I was under the impression the MAX was destined for Hawaii eventually? Either way, does not matter. Best of luck on your Hawaii flying, your OAK crew room has given you quite the rep over here. What was gonna be friendly competition will probably turn ugly. We knew a percentage of your pax were of low class, but the pilots are starting to look that way as well. |
Give it a rest already KingAir . You are the one going on and on and on about this. The passive aggressive thing is making you look foolish and petty.
If you had an HAL shark hanging on the wall chasing AK and SWA bait fish, you would be gloating from ear to ear. You usually have solid posts, but this isn’t one of them. Most of us have been kicked in the nuts too many times in aviation to wish I’ll will on anyone. I wish you and the AK folks good luck! |
Originally Posted by av8trinabarrel
(Post 2783413)
Give it a rest already KingAir . You are the one going on and on and on about this. The passive aggressive thing is making you look foolish and petty.
If you had an HAL shark hanging on the wall chasing AK and SWA bait fish, you would be gloating from ear to ear. You usually have solid posts, but this isn’t one of them. Most of us have been kicked in the nuts too many times in aviation to wish I’ll will on anyone. I wish you and the AK folks good luck! Disagree. When a picture like that is seen, it’ll spark some angst in anyone who’s the small fish. I have to back up Kingair here because I have mouths to feed as I would imagine he does, too. While I hope it turns out a David vs Goliath situation we all know the possibilities both good and bad. If that particular thinking isn’t shared by the pilot group then shame on the management team for putting it up, it’s trashy and tasteless at best. If you don’t want an immature fight then don’t start one. I can also tell you with certainty that would never be placed on HAL property whether we were a 15,000 pilot group out to get everyone or the 800 pilot group with a niche that we are. Take it for what it is and I appreciate you not being a part of the problem, but to follow in KinAirs footsteps.... You started it. |
I don’t see that shark thing to be that big of a deal or meant as an insult. If anything, it’s a caricature of our respective airline sizes and a motivator for all of us to do this right.
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Originally Posted by Donuthole
(Post 2783680)
Disagree. When a picture like that is seen, it’ll spark some angst in anyone who’s the small fish. I have to back up Kingair here because I have mouths to feed as I would imagine he does, too. While I hope it turns out a David vs Goliath situation we all know the possibilities both good and bad. If that particular thinking isn’t shared by the pilot group then shame on the management team for putting it up, it’s trashy and tasteless at best. If you don’t want an immature fight then don’t start one. I can also tell you with certainty that would never be placed on HAL property whether we were a 15,000 pilot group out to get everyone or the 800 pilot group with a niche that we are. Take it for what it is and I appreciate you not being a part of the problem, but to follow in KinAirs footsteps.... You started it.
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Originally Posted by KnockKnock
(Post 2783730)
One of their guys stumbled over to the Alaska boards and tried picking fights there too. A couple of his own came and grabbed him though so all good. All this peacocking is ridiculous. Unless they’re in management and actually have a say in the business decisions, no pilot should be beating their chest and declaring superiority, let alone salivating at the prospect of another pilot groups demise. Last time I checked, we all go to the same places and push pretty much the same buttons to get there. SOME of these SW guys need to pump their brakes and remember how fast this industry can change ones situation.
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Originally Posted by kingairfun
(Post 2783370)
So... new goal...
How many SWA guys can we get to comment on HA and AK threads... For an airline that does really well, you guys sure get defensive if anyone makes a negative comment.:rolleyes: And the MAX was never intended for Hawaii? Phoenix, Denver.. all those possible route talks are for the -700/-800? I was under the impression the MAX was destined for Hawaii eventually? Either way, does not matter. Best of luck on your Hawaii flying, your OAK crew room has given you quite the rep over here. What was gonna be friendly competition will probably turn ugly. We knew a percentage of your pax were of low class, but the pilots are starting to look that way as well. Cheers |
Originally Posted by KnockKnock
(Post 2783730)
One of their guys stumbled over to the Alaska boards and tried picking fights there too. A couple of his own came and grabbed him though so all good. All this peacocking is ridiculous. Unless they’re in management and actually have a say in the business decisions, no pilot should be beating their chest and declaring superiority, let alone salivating at the prospect of another pilot groups demise. Last time I checked, we all go to the same places and push pretty much the same buttons to get there. SOME of these SW guys need to pump their brakes and remember how fast this industry can change ones situation.
I know BOTH carriers can co exist so chill out. Cheers |
Originally Posted by Opakapaka
(Post 2783804)
Look how quick Hal reduced fare interisland. Now you are finally representing the people of Hawaii. Took SWA to help Hal see the light.
Cheers Good time for a fact check. I just did a comparison shop for day after tomorrow, returning a day later: SWA Austin-Dallas $457.96 HAL Honolulu-Hilo $209.94 |
Originally Posted by fuzzball
(Post 2783826)
Good time for a fact check.
I just did a comparison shop for day after tomorrow, returning a day later: SWA Austin-Dallas $457.96 HAL Honolulu-Hilo $209.94 |
Originally Posted by Opakapaka
(Post 2783818)
Were you around during the merger talks with AQ. After the books were open (AQ was a private company) and Hal saw our game plane they pulled out and did exactly what AQ had planned. Many HAL pilots picketed to stop the merger and were pretty mean if you got one trying to JS. Also after AQ shut down Victory flags appeared, so don’t tell us about beating chests, because after 20 years I had to start over so you’re preaching to the wrong guy. Go back in time and look in the mirror.
I know BOTH carriers can co exist so chill out. Cheers |
Originally Posted by Opakapaka
(Post 2783818)
Were you around during the merger talks with AQ. After the books were open (AQ was a private company) and Hal saw our game plane they pulled out and did exactly what AQ had planned. Many HAL pilots picketed to stop the merger and were pretty mean if you got one trying to JS. Also after AQ shut down Victory flags appeared, so don’t tell us about beating chests, because after 20 years I had to start over so you’re preaching to the wrong guy. Go back in time and look in the mirror.
I know BOTH carriers can co exist so chill out. Cheers Fact check contd. I was working that day and didn't see or hear anything about a "victory" flag. One documented case of a 2%er at HAL giving an AQ guy a hard time about the jumpseat. Anti-merger sentiment was a clear-eyed look at the economics of AQ and knowing that a merger would have resulted in economic failure and everyone getting stapled somewhere. Even with $20million ASTB stabilization loan, AQ lost, what was it, $40 million? Still running 737-200s from the early '70s and hoping their competitor goes out of business wasn't working... We'd all have been career FOs, instead now the former AQ people are widebody captains at HAL, welcomed with open arms in 2008. Go figure. |
Originally Posted by Peacock
(Post 2783830)
People are willing to pay a premium to fly out of Love and avoid DFW
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Originally Posted by FNGFO
(Post 2783844)
SXSW festival explains the cost.
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My pilots LUV me!
They LUV me so much they come on here just for me! It feels soooo good. We LUV talking about Hawaii and how we’re going to buy Hawaiian Airlines in 6 months. The Southwest effect is real. Ooh I LUV reading these comments. Keep at it fellas! You tell em! You’re sooo good and smart...just save room for all those muffins from the hotel in Waikiki!
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Originally Posted by Donuthole
(Post 2783680)
Disagree. When a picture like that is seen, it’ll spark some angst in anyone who’s the small fish. I have to back up Kingair here because I have mouths to feed as I would imagine he does, too. While I hope it turns out a David vs Goliath situation we all know the possibilities both good and bad. If that particular thinking isn’t shared by the pilot group then shame on the management team for putting it up, it’s trashy and tasteless at best. If you don’t want an immature fight then don’t start one. I can also tell you with certainty that would never be placed on HAL property whether we were a 15,000 pilot group out to get everyone or the 800 pilot group with a niche that we are. Take it for what it is and I appreciate you not being a part of the problem, but to follow in KinAirs footsteps.... You started it.
If you and your boys wanna start a war over a wall ornament, then have at it. I will continue to welcome the HAL jumpers on our flights anytime any day. I was hired into the next class with you guys three weeks before 9-11 hit. I wanted nothing more than to be part of the HAL life, but it wasn't meant to be. You guys offer a superior product for sure, but to hear King Air say your pax are of a higher grade is downright comical. Having lived in Kona and flown you guys more than I care to remember, Hawaii is past the breaking point of scum and trash infesting your once beautiful islands. Your delusional if you think your pax are somehow better than any other carrier.....except Spirit of course :D |
Originally Posted by Peacock
(Post 2783776)
What’s wrong with peacocking?!
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Originally Posted by av8trinabarrel
(Post 2783883)
HAHAHAHA I guess you have the market cornered on mouths to feed. Got it!!
If you and your boys wanna start a war over a wall ornament, then have at it. I will continue to welcome the HAL jumpers on our flights anytime any day. I was hired into the next class with you guys three weeks before 9-11 hit. I wanted nothing more than to be part of the HAL life, but it wasn't meant to be. You guys offer a superior product for sure, but to hear King Air say your pax are of a higher grade is downright comical. Having lived in Kona and flown you guys more than I care to remember, Hawaii is past the breaking point of scum and trash infesting your once beautiful islands. Your delusional if you think your pax are somehow better than any other carrier.....except Spirit of course :D Because that’s what I said right? Go back under your bridge. |
Originally Posted by Donuthole
(Post 2783900)
Because that’s what I said right? Go back under your bridge.
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Originally Posted by av8trinabarrel
(Post 2783901)
Enjoy whats coming your way then prick
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Originally Posted by FNGFO
(Post 2783844)
SXSW festival explains the cost.
So, same dates for SWA Tulsa-Lubbock: $635.36 HAL HNL-Hilo: 209.94 Unless there's an international festival in Lubbock this week I didn't hear about! Omaha-Kansas City? $779.36 Guys, you're missing the point. There's this myth that HAL overcharges on interisland fares, when all the evidence says this isn't true. Someone will find a $49 fare from somewhere to somewhere, and that's great. I'm just trying to be Joe Q. Public here and pretend I need to get somewhere on Monday morning. So long as SWA keeps doing what it's doing with the fare structure, there's room for everyone. |
Originally Posted by fuzzball
(Post 2783944)
Excellent point. HAL fares to Hilo can get steep during Merrie Monarch.
So, same dates for SWA Tulsa-Lubbock: $635.36 HAL HNL-Hilo: 209.94 Unless there's an international festival in Lubbock this week I didn't hear about! Omaha-Kansas City? $779.36 Guys, you're missing the point. There's this myth that HAL overcharges on interisland fares, when all the evidence says this isn't true. Someone will find a $49 fare from somewhere to somewhere, and that's great. I'm just trying to be Joe Q. Public here and pretend I need to get somewhere on Monday morning. So long as SWA keeps doing what it's doing with the fare structure, there's room for everyone. The fact remains that those people can’t drive unlike those on the mainland, so they are likely more price sensitive. Part of the limitation of living in sparsely populated islands where the best services (doctors) are found on Oahu. Price of paradise, but HAL becomes an easy scapegoat. Otherwise HAL kicks SWA okole in the pricing of parabolic flying routes. Despite what the media portrays... |
Originally Posted by av8trinabarrel
(Post 2783901)
Enjoy whats coming your way then prick
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I've never seen local media outlets gushing over an airline entrance so much before with Southwest coming to Hawaii. About 99% of the comments online are all negative with Hawaiian and about 99% positive with Southwest. I think it's gotten to the point where Hawaii people would let them set up a HQ in Iolani Palace already.
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Originally Posted by fuzzball
(Post 2783944)
Excellent point. HAL fares to Hilo can get steep during Merrie Monarch.
So, same dates for SWA Tulsa-Lubbock: $635.36 HAL HNL-Hilo: 209.94 Unless there's an international festival in Lubbock this week I didn't hear about! Omaha-Kansas City? $779.36 Guys, you're missing the point. There's this myth that HAL overcharges on interisland fares, when all the evidence says this isn't true. Someone will find a $49 fare from somewhere to somewhere, and that's great. I'm just trying to be Joe Q. Public here and pretend I need to get somewhere on Monday morning. So long as SWA keeps doing what it's doing with the fare structure, there's room for everyone. I could give a $hit about this silly argument, but the reason for those prices is because it is spring break in the central time zone. Every flight is sold out this weekend pretty much to and from anywhere in the middle of the country. My wife is nonrevving and had to drive 200 miles to another station to get out of this time zone. Back to sniping at one another over things that none of us can effect. |
Originally Posted by Gary Kelly
(Post 2783910)
Now now! While I admire that warrior spirit. that’s not how we talk to future acquisitionees! You’ll have plenty of years sitting next to him in the cockpit of the MAX to remind him that you were “hired not acquired”. Remember that Golden Rule!
Best post of the thread! I almost spit out my food. If you are the guy running the Gary Kelly parody twitter account, please keep posting. We miss you! |
Originally Posted by fuzzball
(Post 2783834)
Fact check contd.
Anti-merger sentiment was a clear-eyed look at the economics of AQ and knowing that a merger would have resulted in economic failure and everyone getting stapled somewhere. Even with $20million ASTB stabilization loan, AQ lost, what was it, $40 million? Still running 737-200s from the early '70s and hoping their competitor goes out of business wasn't working... We'd all have been career FOs, instead now the former AQ people are widebody captains at HAL, welcomed with open arms in 2008. Go figure. So that was a $83 million deficit year (on revenue of, what 200M?) and management's hail mary was the merger. What happened next? 2004 bankruptcy, Banmiller, etc. I say again: With the merger, none of our friends from AQ would be in the left seat of an A330 deciding where they're having ramen in Osaka tonight. So please don't describe the few wise men who organized against the merger as having been fuelled by hate, they were looking two moves ahead and wanted at least one local carrier to survive. Heck, as a newish guy I sorta thought the merger made sense, but when the numbers became available there was no ignoring the facts. |
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
(Post 2783984)
Best post of the thread! I almost spit out my food.
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Originally Posted by av8trinabarrel
(Post 2783901)
Enjoy whats coming your way then prick
https://i.imgflip.com/7n6bc.gif |
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
(Post 2783982)
I could give a $hit about this silly argument, but the reason for those prices is because it is spring break in the central time zone. Every flight is sold out this weekend pretty much to and from anywhere in the middle of the country. My wife is nonrevving and had to drive 200 miles to another station to get out of this time zone.
Back to sniping at one another over things that none of us can effect. Enlighten me, what's the hot spring break destination here, Tulsa or Lubbock? ;) Same routes. Mid April: SWA: $420 HAL: $190 No SXSW, no spring break. Again, no one's upset about a competitor who charges a fair price. Mesa's sin was charging below cost to put our friends out of business. |
30,000 college students going to and from Lubbock for Spring Break is driving that cost.
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