Random date...May 13th OAK-HNL One way

SWA: Anytime Fare...$600 Business select $630 (same seat:eek:)
HA: Extra Comfort (nice seat, sat in it for 10hrs) $434
Main Cabin $354
extras: both provide some form of app or tv for entertainment
HA: Free coach meal, free glass of wine, free mai tai, free sodas etc
SWA: snack box, free soda's

HA baggage fee...$30 over 50lbs $50...
SWA baggage Fee: free up to 50lbs.. $75 thereafter

one oversized suitcase >50lbs
SWA $75
HA $80

Checked May 15th same flight... same prices

Inter Island May 13th, one way OGG-HNL

SWA: Wanna get away $49 Anytime $159 Business $175
HA: Main Cabin $49 Preferrd $59 First $109

SWA same all day
Hawaiian: price varies throughout the day.. max is around $110-120 all day first class

This is the same type of pricing difference I've seen with every random day I've selected since SWA started selling tickets..

HA has so many Pualani pax interisland that get 2 free bags, the price difference shouldn't factor in the interisland equation.

So if we go off pure price I have my theory as to who will get the business... just a guess

1st bag is $15 interisland if you sign-up for a HawaiianMiles account. Or the more popular option...bring the most ridiculous sized "carry-on" and have it gate checked for free. ;)

Forgot about that... I used to be Pualani Platinum, so just know I got 2 free bags, free change fee, Pualani lounge access, and unlimited 1st class upgrades. On interisland and long haul....

What about the fact that the 737 Max is a 170-200 seat airplane vs. the 717 at like 120 seats. Will SWA flood the interisland market with cheap seats just to keep the plane at an acceptable load factor?

They can try. But short flights are still flights as far as maintenance is concerned. They will need to crack that coconut before anyone at HA needs to be evacuating poi from their pants.

4 flights to OGG and KOA is one thing. If SW leaves a dedicated fleet in the islands, starts bidding for mail contracts and cargo...then we got a problem.

Several times, all on points. Air fare, hotel and rental car.

And you’re right, I don’t think it’s HAL that should have their eyes wide open right now. SWA’s focus is the CA customer who has been flying on Alaska for business trips, who now has a reason to fly SWA more frequently. Clearly HAL isn’t competing for the SoCal<-->PNW passenger...

Max is 175 on SWA. And we are getting snack boxes?!

Does anyone think that another airline might merge or buy Hawaiian? If Hawaiian finds itself on the verge of bankruptcy, will someone step in to prevent WN from a complete takeover of the Hawaii interisland market? Do airlines see value in Hawaiians small fleet, gate space, MX hangar, equipment...

Lots of good points from my HAL brothers.

After a couple nights of sleeping on this, I’m still convinced at least for the first couple of years the pilots that need to be worried have an Eskimo on their tail. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Alaska backing out some, and doing a couple more flights to Guadalajara every day like they used to before they found HI.

SWA guys still plenty welcome on the jumpseat. Lord knows I’ve Jumped on you guys many times in the past. Let’s keep this civil and let our managements figure it out.

Kingairfun really brings up some great points. Other airlines can bring all the planes out here they want to, but if they don’t have any place to park them it’s not going to help. Gate space at the Hawaii airports ALREADY looks like the parking lot of an outlet mall on Black Friday. That’s on a normal day.

Inter island will be more competitive, but from the mainland southwest passengers and Hawaiian passengers are two different types of people. NOTE: This is not a slam of anyone’s passengers. It’s a simple statement of fact. The target off of the mainland is Alaska, not Hawaiian. Like Kingair says, Most passengers that fly Hawaiian fly because they like Hawaiian not because they are chasing low fares. They are after a specific product.

With that said. No one does what Southwest does better than Southwest. At the same time, no one does what Hawaiian does better than Hawaiian. There’s room for both of us. It’s the others that should be worried.

Let’s give this a year or two and see where it shakes out. Until then, you guys might want to take this to the Alaska sub forum. [emoji481]

In general, and based on line flying conversations, there are many who believe Hawaiian will eventually merge with someone. That was before SWA even sniffed Hawaii. I am one of those that always believed eventually we would be bought or merged with another Legacy. Just the natural progression of business and the way consolidation has occurred in the past decade+.

Do I think it'll be SWA? Absolutely not. Nothing about our business models matches. The only people who seem to believe SWA will buy us are the diehard SWA koolaid drinkers who think just because they are finally flying somewhere interesting they must be buying Hawaiian. (maybe it's widebody envy??!!):p

I feel it will be one of the big 3 who covet our international routes and brand. On a personal note if it does happen, SWA is at the bottom of my list of hopefuls.

You mentioned bankruptcy..... :rolleyes::rolleyes: We are still profitable given our small size. I should say our margins look good compared to many airlines and our relative size. Bankruptcy hasn't crossed anyone's mind as far as I can tell. There are a lot of things that could go right or wrong over the next few years.. Economy, Fuel, Competition, god forbid an accident of some sort. Bankruptcy of an airline our size could happen but we certainly aren't planning on it because Southwest is flying a few 737's over here next week.

IMO, we will eventually merge with someone because the board will see a dwindling profit margin and low returns to shareholders. The transportation industry in general is in a downward trend. Fuel prices have slowly risen and fallen. Capacity is increasing to a point where retrenching may start to occur. At some point they will decide to cash out at whatever premium they can negotiate. Just my personal opinion.

What’s your reason that we are on the bottom of your list? Just curious.

And who the F@$& is this guy!!!???

It'll be hard not to offend you but here are the blunt reasons... Please don't take it as a personal attack.

Personally I've never been attracted to SWA. Never applied there. Never been fond of the "culture" (dating back to pre 9/11, I know the culture and cowboy ways have changed.) I still believe that you all weren't that great post 9/11, it's that everyone else (accept JB) went through rough times and came back to your level. .

I've never bought into the way, from the moment you're a new hire it's a constant koolaid inundation. The way your new hire classes make fun of other airlines and their pilots with your skits at the end of indoc. Personally I think a lot of the people at SWA are very arrogant. Throwing back some shots and beers on a Monday or going to sniffers row on a Friday can be done anywhere, SWA doesn't have the monopoly on that. Your all not as cool as ya think. (sorry if that sounds harsh)

Look at a recent new hire picture with all of them wearing fake Hawaiian Leis and throwing shakas out. They look like a bunch of cheeseballs who have no clue what they are doing, or what the significance of a leis means or a shaka. Just comes off very arrogant. Maybe not the new hires fault, but your managements mentality.

I think many of your pilots get very defensive when someone points out a deficiency at SWA. If someone points out a deficiency at Hawaiian, I usually either agree or have a real good reason not to. I realize we have issues as do all airlines.

I have enough friends that work at SWA. Some turned out to stay really cool, others mainlined the koolaid and became complete D-bags right from indoc. Like the rest of us all of a sudden worked for inferior carriers. ( yes we have really high paying premium trips as well, our interisland guys can do a :45 minute out and back to OGG for 6:15 credit. Somehow my few Dbag friends think SWA is the only carrier with premium trips. Sorry personal tangent there)

I don't agree with the way you treated AT in the merger. If one of them speaks up or complains, they get attacked and told they should be happy to be working for such a great company. I had a couple of acquaintances at AT and they seemed happy there and never cared about getting bought by SWA.

I would rather work at another Legacy than SWA. If given a choice it would be DL, UA, then AA in that order for the variety of reasons. Followed by JB because of the people I know there and I think the two pilot groups mesh well, AK and then SWA. Honestly it's the several bad apples with the arrogant attitudes that have ruined the perception of SWA for me. My honest perception of the majority of SWA is arrogant, which is by far my least favorite quality in a person.

I would be the guy still wearing a Hawaiian lanyard and reminiscing about Hawaiian trips and people. So probably better for all that I don't end up at SWA:D

Looks like a former FLEX JET (over worked fractional guy with low pay) who ended up at Spirit.

I think maybe you are basing a lot of your assumptions on a few people and what you hear on APC. That does not match my experience at all at SWA, but I certainly see how one could possibly arrive at those conclusions.

I, like you, don’t get bent out of shape when someone calls a spade a spade and I know that Southwest isn’t the end all, far from it. The crews, however, are overall super people who are professional and fun to fly with. There are, of course, the one percent.

Pretty much everyone figures out about a week after new hire training is over that the kool aid mainline they fed you does not match the reality on the line. As our pilot group trends more and more civilian and less and less military, you tend to have fewer koolies. Life on the line is what I suspect it is pretty much anywhere. The crews are fighting battles to keep the operation afloat and keep winning our customers back every day despite the idiotic decisions of our overlords.

I think Hawaiian is a great airline that will continue to exist in its current form for a long time, so any theoretical merger is just that. And you’re right, SWA cannot even begin to do what Hawaiian already does. They lack the knowhow, technology, and experience and are a long way from getting there.

Well said Five Oh. Hopefully plenty of $ to be made by all three of us.

Jesus man. You absolutely nailed it. Exactly the reason I never had any interest in applying to SWA. You’re absolutely spot on with your assessment but your throat won’t be jumped down as much as mine since I’m “aquired” and have the audacity to speak negatively of my new CULTure.

Thanks man. That was a breath of fresh air to know that others see things in a similar light as some of “not real SW types”.

Were you at HAL in 2008? I was at Aloha and one of your capts put a flag out of the window stating Victory when AQ went out of business. Then you’ve had a monopoly interisland since, gouging the locals with high prices. Ask anyone one about Hawaiian and they’re ****ed how they treat locals. Well, now I’m at swa and love the fact that we are freaking you guys out. Well you should be cause you’re gonna start losing profits. Fair is fair!!! Maybe now you’ll take care of the locals cause the last 10 years you haven’t. This is no Aloha your competing with either. And if you can’t stand being on a swa flight for more than 30 minutes... Guess what, the locals will.
Finally you’ll see what it’s like to compete. Cheers

Yet. This thing is in its infancy, and not doing it like the others while winning is kinda their thing.

Yes, I said this very thing in the opening post. I can quote it if you like. They are kings of marketing, and if that's the manner they chose to take business away from you then fine. But there's also the fact that they have the ability to get in an extended price war with you and others if and when they choose. The fact that they want to do inter island flying means that the crosshairs are on HAL even though SWA will certainly hurt other legacies with this new endeavor.

Two things here. 1. SWA isn't trying to connect long haul passengers via codeshare initially. That's not their niche though I could certainly see them offering fares for inter island flying that undercut the long haul plus codeshare flight on HAL. It's a long walk over to the domestic terminal anyway at HNL. Might as well get the bags bother with security if you're gonna save enough cash. 2. They're not going to be a guppy only airline forever, and what is convenient for them now might not be what is convenient for them in the future.

Having spent considerable time on the islands I'd argue against the locals only stance. I've jumped on an HAL 717 many times to jump to another island on a lark, and don't think they won't aggressively push that angle when they get set up.

Now that is an interesting argument, and one to take seriously. But do you know what fixes gate space given a strong commitment to Hawaiian flying? Money and concrete. They're not short on the former.

It's interesting that in later posts that you too see HAL eventually merging with another airline. It tells me that you also see this cutting into slim profit margins and forcing hands regardless of what you think of your current product. Who that dance partner will be is anyone's guess, but I could see this as being one of the first dominoes to fall when the dance starts up again with the airlines.

The argument is lost when you ask who are you instead of are you right.

BTW, overworked? YES. Low pay? It's no longer competitive with the majors, but that wasn't always the case. And yes, currently at Spirit which is why I question the notion of passengers wanting their travel to be part of the experience of a Hawaiian vacation. Particularly given SWA's targeted market segment.

Interesting times ahead.

A little background about the new hire class wearing leis...

The day before class starts, SWA flys you and your spouse to Dallas. You check into a fantastic hotel and are bussed to an aviation museum where they host a private dinner for your class and spouses. It’s also a meet and great with some management and other company people. They provide dinner and drinks and issue you your wings. During the course of the night it is tradition for the previous class to develop and execute a skit honoring the new class with a shot of Wild Turkey (Herb’s favorite :) ). The Hawiian themed skit probably had something to do with the new service to HI and has nothing to do with making fun of anyone. I am confident there was no disrespect intended and it was a private function. Each skit is different and is not directed by the company. It’s all just in fun, and I think probably meant to build relationships among class mates.

SW is not without faults, but most of the people here would bend over backwards to help someone else. Arrogant is not how I would discribe my coworkers. I think you’re right about just a few bad apples giving you the wrong impression.

https://www.fool.com/amp/investing/2019/03/06/hawaiian-airlines-stock-crashes-why-it-will-bounce.aspx

Hm....

First off, I'm sorry you have that opinion of Southwest and our pilot group. I'll also join the chorus and say that you shouldn't base your opinion on account of 5%'ers, which at least in my short 3 years here so far, has been less than a handful that I've encountered.

Speaking of our "culture", here's how I see it... when we see a fellow Southwest pilot, we acknowledge each other or say hello in passing even if we've never seen each other. When we see a Southwest flight attendant, we say hello to them. CULTish? No, I'd call it more along the lines of having respect for your fellow crew. Is that a bad thing? It's sad how many other airline crews just walk right past each other, from the same airline no less, not even acknowledging each other and just keeping on walking. It's sad.

I will also echo others about how I've been treated from day 1 of my interview, how the company has treated us from day 1 in class, to my wife being in the hospital while I was still in initial and the flight ops team sending her a care package wishing her a speedy recovery... and I was just a new hire! Mind you, they also sent me home to be with her and worked out a plan to get me back so I can be done on schedule, but with zero pressure to stick to it because "family always comes first."

Or when I got ill during my probationary year causing me to go out on medical, my chief taking an active interest in helping me and giving me advice on how to proceed, putting me in touch with SWAPA people who would subsequently help me and reassuring me not to worry about the job because it'll be waiting for me, or another chief writing passes for my kid when he was stuck going home as my travel benefits were suspended after my sick leave depletion during that period - go figure I was a newhire.

I have my gripes with Southwest in so many ways. I'm a line pilot and I b*tch just like the next guy. But one thing you won't see me b*tch about is our culture and about our people, and it has nothing to do with koolaid or management, but the highest respect for my almost 10,000 brothers and sisters I share the cockpit with here and our flight attendants. Now, it's not a slam or a throw against any other airline or pilot group. My true hope is that others get treated better than I do here and treat each other better than we treat each other here because that would be truly setting the bar even higher. One thing for sure, since this isn't my first rodeo, or the second, or the fifth, I can say that I have never been treated better at any airline or outfit.

As for you being offended at the silliness displayed by one of our new newhire classes, I can't help you. If you are offended by someone having a good time, perhaps you aren't a good ambassador for Hawaii because people generally tend to go there to have a good time, be silly, do silly, light-hearted things, have a few laughs and then return to their grind. You may need to tweak your 'e komo mai' a little better.

As to how we "treated" AirTran, it's over and it's been over for years. For every bitter coot like Whack, there are multitude of Trannies who are realistic and know that long-term they're far better off and as a result, they're happy they're here. But to each their own. They are now my Southwest Airlines brothers and sisters... period. End of story.

As for where you'd rather work, that's all a personal choice and I respect your opinion. But judging an airline with 10,000 pilots and over 56,000 employees because of actions of the very few shows a complete lack of maturity, character, and levelheadedness, and given that I know quite a few people on your seniority list and your management, I know you're a very small minority and I share your sentiment in truly hoping you don't end up on the same seniority list as me.

I appreciate your honesty. Remember, it goes both ways and please don't take it as a personal attack because it's not.

Thanks for the honest answer.

I’m a little bit at a loss though; we do skits now?!

HA is a great airline to work for. Sure we have our own internal issues, but what family doesn’t? AQ was great as well, and fortunately a majority eventually made their way over here as well. I would sadden me if we are merged/acquired. Not because I think any of the other majors are bad places to work, but because we would be losing the last “hometown” airline in Hawaii. I have friends at all of the majors, even some who left HA during furlough, and they share the same sentiment. Although the pilot group has almost tripled since AQ went under, I think we still have the small airline feel.

Sentiments aside, the only way that airlines seem to really grow now are through M&As. My last business class was many moons ago. But if I were to haphazard a guess of potential suitors, I would say DL, B6, AA and UA, in that order.

RE: Gate space.

This is in no way shape or form a hit on you, but you obviously have NO idea how things work in HI.

Out here, even if Southwest has the budget of our national defense, and all of the concrete in the world, everything out here moves at the speed of smell. You were talking YEARS to get something built.

You just have to live here to see it and understand it. Southwest could throw a couple BILLION dollars of capital into the mix, end it would still take years to get something done. The more pressure that is placed just to speed things up, the slower things go...

“Gouging”... WTF? Let’s just call it what it is, there was too much capacity and prices were too low. Waaay too low. The inter-island fairs out here were never market value based on a profitable airline business model.

The distance between HNL and KOA Is roughly the same distance as between Houston and San Antonio, or Newark and Washington DC. The HNL-KOA rates are right in there for the same type of distance flown anywhere in the United States. It’s a fair market value ticket price. Get over it.

This, unless you’re saying the rate should be 50% less just because it’s Hawaii. Come on, you’re on a roll, keep spewing.

Your hate and contempt has blinded you. You do realize that most of your fellow coworkers are employed at HAL now. Your vile post is basically hoping that all of your fellow former coworkers are condemned to being unemployed. Now, please understand that almost half of this pilot group was not on property when that mixup happened.

Your blind hate and contempt is really directed at the wrong people here. It was Mesa that did you guys in, not HAL. Wow...

Island time is island time whether it’s Kauai or St. Kitts.

Still SWA tends to grease the wheels to make things move in their favor. It’s all half a**ed conjecture at this point anyway.

I was at Netjets, I know all about it.

Congrats on escaping.

Not sure if it was escaping or forced to move on a decade ago!!


Honest question..

If you were getting a free ride to Hawaii, everything being equal.. Departure/arrival time etc. Who would be your first choice to ride on? SWA, HA, or Spirit (assuming they came out here)

You have much to learn Grasshopper.

All of the grease in the world won’t matter. The wheels here don’t turn on weekends, nights or holidays. The number of wheels are very limited, and said wheels are usually allocated on other projects already. Get in line.

Agreed. It’s conjecture. Time will tell. Again, I’m not worried about it. The TRUE 800 lb gorilla In the room here has always been remaining cycles on our 717’s and the fact that no airplane manufactured today will do what the 717 does here as well as the 717. Destiny has already shown its face here. The inter-island market will simply be part of the future business plan, not THE plan.

Here’s another data point for you guys that think a multibillion-dollar corporation from the mainland is just going to come out here and take over...

A couple years ago, a mainland corporation wanted to buy out the local power company HECO. The locals hate HECO for the same perceived reasons that you “think” makes Hawaiian air not popular here. The power grid is completely dilapidated, and the rates are 3 to 5 times higher than what you would pay on the mainland. Again, HA fares are market rate compared to the mainland. Power rates out here literally are 3 to 5 times higher. So...

This mainland corporation promised and could show that not only would they reduce power rates, but they would modernize the infrastructure and make the power more reliable out here. It was a complete win.

At the end of the day, the mainland corporation was sent home packing because the only thing that the residents hated more than HECO, Was the idea of a big corporation from the mainland coming out here and trying to affect change. Yes, even if that meant lower rates and more reliable service.

I look forward to chatting with you SWA guys on overnights. Again, I hold no ill will to your pilot group. We are just bus drivers. Hopefully there’s good money in great retirement left for all of us when the dust settles. When you factor in the politics out here, absolutely none of us have any idea what’s going to happen in the end.

Yeah, I just missed the furloughs myself.

That’s kinda a loaded question. Assuming apples to apples meaning economy seats then it really doesn’t matter between SWA and HA. Let me sit in the premium seating and it’s HA followed by NK.

Your NJ’s background helps explain your emphasis on product and experience, but knowing our backgrounds I can safely say that both of us have spent a lot of time in the economy section of all airline brands ( before accumulated points led to status assuming you didn’t get booked on the Monday morning ORD with 145 other platinum members) and it just plain sucks back there. Particularly on long flights.

I’ve vacationed on Hawaii 7 or 8 times. Certainly not a native, but I’ve been there plenty and love it. I’ve ridden first class and steerage out and back. And not once did I give two thoughts about the travel experience other than wanting it to be over. I really don’t think your average SWA pax is looking for that either. SWA FA’s throwing cheesy cheap lei’s, maybe playing some island sounding music on the PA and serving pineapple juice is probably more than enough for them.

Maybe. Or maybe they’ll bring in A construction firm of their own. If there’s anything I’ll tip my cap to SWA for its their willingness to find a way and push through.

Forgive me for being blunt, your ignorance is so bright that it’s blinding. You don’t understand how things work out here. It really is that different.

All of the local construction firms are 100% hard-core Union. I’m talking hard-core union to the point that it makes the unions in New York look like conservative non-union right to work places in Texas. You have no idea. Now add that all of the local construction companies employ locals.

So then, what do you think the local union workers out here would do when a large mainland corporation tried to show up with their own trucks and bulldozers with low rate labor from out of state?

I don’t expect you to understand. This is something you have to experience firsthand. Unless you’re born and raised here, or have lived here for a long time, you won’t get this.

Who cares. It’s not the NFL. It’s not a religion.

It’s just Airlines competing and we are all just pawns handcuffed to the company we ended up working for. My only goal is to remain employed for another twenty years and I hope everyone at our competitors does too.


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I know you think that’s special or unique, but getting around the roadblocks presented by unionized labor is a time honored tradition. Maybe you’re right. And maybe you’re wrong.

I wouldn’t bet against SWA getting something done if they have the will to do it.

To fill in HA50's point further, bringing in a construction firm doesn't do much good if no one will let you have any concrete or asphalt. :rolleyes:

Well, for conversations sake... I HOPE that SWA tries to do something like this. It would cause a revolt out here. They would be viewed as the bad guy. It would destroy their public opinion out here , and like with the electric company comparison that I mentioned, the residents would gladly pay higher rates to fly on a company that’s loyal to the state population. Bring it on.

This would go over much worse than Donald Trump trying to hold a MAGA rally out here.