Originally Posted by benzoate (Post 2626204)

Unless I am mistaken I am substantially more senior than most of you on this board and the TA is designed for the middle to lower seniority levels. I can accept that because the goal is to better the airline and attract better pilots.

This TA is not at the bottom and not even close. A thorough inspection clearly points out we fall roughly in the middle in almost every definable category. On those that cannot be defined or are vague then the "market rate" term is debatable. We can't expect to be compared to DAL and UAL for every category because they are the highest paid but they don't have the "best" work rules or rules that benefit the Jetblue pilot. As an example, the ability to build and require a percentage of commutable trips is unheard of and something no one else has. I am not a commuter but that ability will greatly improve the lives of many pilots.

Am I going to be paid the same rates as a senior DAL pilot, NO, but then again we are not the size of DAL either. I can make that pay argument all day buts its not likely to succeed.

Next we should look at insurance. Not an easily definable section in the contract and definitely not something where there is an "industry standard". Jetblue insurance deductibles are overly high and the airline/union have chosen/lack the ability to do anything about it.

Lets also look at scope. The ability to completely limit Jetblues ability to start or have a regional do our flying is worth what to you? Delta, UAL and the rest are compensate extra for that. I would prefer not to ever have any of our flying done by a regional and we will have that ability.

High deductible, regional flying, commutable pairings...

Market rate is a very difficult thing to define but to make the statement that were at the bottom is dishonest and unreasonable. Lastly, we can only bargain for now. What does everyone else have now. We cannot bargain for Delta rates in 3 years because it doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. This TA is head and shoulders better than what we have now and, pay rates aside, there are many solid provisions in the contract. Could more sections be fixed if we vote NO? I believe they can and therefore will vote accordingly but to suggest the TA is a turd or anything else means your only knowledge of airline contracts is based on what you read on Bluepilots or here.

Originally Posted by BunkerF16 (Post 2626339)

Like I said earlier, I expected to have any real monetary increase with this TA. I figured the PTOSB was going away, but would be replaced by the increase in base pay. Basically a wash.


What I expected was that I'd actually bid vacation instead of just bidding around the weeks I wanted, I hoped our pay would be in the middle of the legacies and SWA/AK, I expected our contract would keep pace with everyone else (3% COLA), I expected our PS would be separated completely from retirement (Get rid of the cliff). And I certainly didn't think they'd give away 75% of the OE trips.


None of that happened. Not one single potential gain/offset that would give me anything to hang my hat on as a senior-ish guy to convince me to vote yes for this thing.


I'm happy for the gains for the less senior guys. I really am. I just can't in good conscience look at this thing in its totality and vote yes. I just can't.

Originally Posted by benzoate (Post 2626204)

Unless I am mistaken I am substantially more senior than most of you on this board and the TA is designed for the middle to lower seniority levels. I can accept that because the goal is to better the airline and attract better pilots.

This TA is not at the bottom and not even close. A thorough inspection clearly points out we fall roughly in the middle in almost every definable category. On those that cannot be defined or are vague then the "market rate" term is debatable. We can't expect to be compared to DAL and UAL for every category because they are the highest paid but they don't have the "best" work rules or rules that benefit the Jetblue pilot. As an example, the ability to build and require a percentage of commutable trips is unheard of and something no one else has. I am not a commuter but that ability will greatly improve the lives of many pilots.

Am I going to be paid the same rates as a senior DAL pilot, NO, but then again we are not the size of DAL either. I can make that pay argument all day buts its not likely to succeed.

Next we should look at insurance. Not an easily definable section in the contract and definitely not something where there is an "industry standard". Jetblue insurance deductibles are overly high and the airline/union have chosen/lack the ability to do anything about it.

Lets also look at scope. The ability to completely limit Jetblues ability to start or have a regional do our flying is worth what to you? Delta, UAL and the rest are compensate extra for that. I would prefer not to ever have any of our flying done by a regional and we will have that ability.

High deductible, regional flying, commutable pairings...

Market rate is a very difficult thing to define but to make the statement that were at the bottom is dishonest and unreasonable. Lastly, we can only bargain for now. What does everyone else have now. We cannot bargain for Delta rates in 3 years because it doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. This TA is head and shoulders better than what we have now and, pay rates aside, there are many solid provisions in the contract. Could more sections be fixed if we vote NO? I believe they can and therefore will vote accordingly but to suggest the TA is a turd or anything else means your only knowledge of airline contracts is based on what you read on Bluepilots or here.

Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2626369)

I didn't read this because I quit trying to keep up but bozo brought it back.


pretty spot on brotha.

Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2626364)

You'll get to bid vacation. There will be over 850 more weeks in the summer alone added to the matrix.

I'm disappointed with pay as well as a 190CA but it falls within the "industry standard" or "market rate"
320pay is great 321sucks IMO I'm not even looking at the C rates and if they go with the 195 I'm a NO every day till that is adressed.

COLA sucks.... IMO

PS sucks... IMO

The OE trips apply to a very small % of guys and what we had was not industry standard. We basically got exactly what is in the United contract for this.

I guess my point is with the improvements in scheduling, pairings, Hours of service, vacation distribution, and reserve rules, would you be able to upgrade, obtain a substantial pay increase and maintain a suitable quality of life?

I don't know? I'm trying to look at all avenues of this thing. Whats my goal? What seat is best for me pass or fail? whats the best base? where does my seniority get me? Not just my situation, but everyone? Do I vote for me and mine or for what I perceive as whats best for everyone.

Lots here. You have to weigh the options.

Originally Posted by BunkerF16 (Post 2626392)

If the range of our peers was from 5-10 and we come in at 5, technically we're peer average. Reality is, we're bottom of our peer set and we fall below them in 3-6 months and the gap grows each year.


I could have taken vacation with the current system if I wanted. But the reality is, if I used all my PTO now for vacation, and I use all my vacation and PTO with the new system for vacation only for comparison sake, I lose a week of vacation. Concession.


COLA--agree


PS--agree


OE--disagree that it only affects a small percentage of pilots. Now with me not able to bid them, I'll take higher productive trips that the guys below me were bidding because I passed them up for less productive trips the CKA were bidding. So it affects all FOs below me. Or, I upgrade. I'd sit about 30% CA in BOS on the Bus. So now I'd get trips and vacation that 70% of the CAs below me were normally getting, but now I'm taking. Same with vacation. Now as a reasonably senior CA, I'm going to get vacation that other CAs would normally have gotten had I not upgraded. Finally, even with my upgrade, I took a CA slot some junior guy would have loved to have had, but no can't because I'm taking his slot. So to say that the OE withholding of trips only affects a small amount of guys is shortsighted IMHO.


Again, are there things in the TA that are good? Of course. It's not total sh1tbag of a deal. But to me, if falls horribly short of where it should be, and what I believe we still could get if we turn this one down.

Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2626427)

You should definitely vote no then.

But really you just said the TA puts us in the realm of average...

Do you believe, should we vote it down that you'll get your OE pairings back? Improved pay and PS and whatever else? Then will the time lost, how ever long that time is make up for the difference? Do you truly believe we have the leverage or the advantage? The NC didn't...
With all the RSA and VDA flying that goes on here? the extensions ect... do we have and advantage?

I know it's impossible to know.

Originally Posted by BunkerF16 (Post 2626432)

I don't think it puts us in the realm of average. I think it puts us in the very bottom of our peer group on DOS, then falling further and further behind every year.


I don't know what we'd get back if we vote it down, but I know it's substandard as it sits right now. I realize the NC felt the got as much out of the company the could. That's why it's probably time to pass the baton to a new NC to push us over the finish line. That is no way a hit against the NC. They did a fantastic job getting us to where we are right now.



Deal making is as much psychology as it is skill. Having sold cars for a year waiting to go into the military, it was one of the most interesting and educational experiences of my life. Sitting across the table from a guy trying to buy a car and being completely deadlocked between what he's willing to spend and what my manager is willing to let the car go for. We'd play the "manager" game. I'd disappear, and another car salesman would come in and talk with them. He'd introduce himself as the assistant GM and that would change the entire dynamic. We'd move $5/month less or offer $500 more off the sticker price and instantly the deal was done.


So do I believe the NC thinks they got the most out of the company they'll ever get. Yes. I do. 100%. Do I believe that's the most WE can get out of the company as a pilot group? Not for a minute.

Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2626439)

My discerning point of view isn't with the NC it's with the group as a whole.

When almost all calls for help from the company are answered...
when almost all extensions are granted...
When Safety and SOP are not the goal...

Whats your leverage?