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Old 06-18-2005, 09:54 AM
  #21  
bluebrother
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explain to me how JB is ignoring the concerns of the pilot group. if you look at the survey's from last year and see what JB is doing to correct those issue's, i would say management is 100% more responsive than any legacy or LCC carrier.

with the reality of THE INDUSTRY i.e. too many seats/price elasticity, we are not going to see a pay increase in the near future. remember, JB really did not make a profit in 4Q 2004 (it's called creative accounting). so to believe that WE DESERVE a raise, possibly to give it back (which the southwest pilots will have to do if oil stays above $50.00) is not wise, its foolish.

our reality today, is to have longevity. if we FOLLOW the typical ALPA mentality, we will end up like the UNITED, DELTA, USAIR, SOON TO BE NORTHWEST AND YES, SOON TO BE SOUTHWEST PILOTS. (if you dont believe me, study their last quarter earnings report)
 
Old 06-18-2005, 10:35 AM
  #22  
Lennon
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Originally Posted by bluebrother
explain to me how JB is ignoring the concerns of the pilot group. if you look at the survey's from last year and see what JB is doing to correct those issue's, i would say management is 100% more responsive than any legacy or LCC carrier.

with the reality of THE INDUSTRY i.e. too many seats/price elasticity, we are not going to see a pay increase in the near future. remember, JB really did not make a profit in 4Q 2004 (it's called creative accounting). so to believe that WE DESERVE a raise, possibly to give it back (which the southwest pilots will have to do if oil stays above $50.00) is not wise, its foolish.

our reality today, is to have longevity. if we FOLLOW the typical ALPA mentality, we will end up like the UNITED, DELTA, USAIR, SOON TO BE NORTHWEST AND YES, SOON TO BE SOUTHWEST PILOTS. (if you dont believe me, study their last quarter earnings report)

I have looked at the results from last year, but those results are not relevant because they do not reflect the new wages and Pilot Agreement that was "mutually agreed upon" 6 months later. Further, can you tell me what exactly was changed as a result of last years survey? Because if you actually read it, you would know that it indicated there were few problems to be addressed. I have a feeling there will be a different story to tell next month.

As far as concerns, how about: 190 Pay, 401k match, changes to the scheduling guide without pilot input, modifying "minimum reserves" at will, abuse of reserve rules by scheduling, etc...did I mention 190 pay?

They only feedback I get is a few obscure and mysterious emails on occasion from the VC. Or, "if you don't like it, there are 10,000 resumes on file".

I'm more than happy to be patient and let things play out. DN and DB are great leaders and I understand their positions. But there is a certain hard-line attitude that has manifested itself in certain areas of management that was not here in the past. I think that's unfortunate, and I hope it changes.

Last edited by Lennon; 06-18-2005 at 10:51 AM.
 
Old 06-18-2005, 11:54 AM
  #23  
Gets Weekends Off
 
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Position: A320 FO
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Originally Posted by bluebrother
explain to me how JB is ignoring the concerns of the pilot group. if you look at the survey's from last year and see what JB is doing to correct those issue's, i would say management is 100% more responsive than any legacy or LCC carrier.

with the reality of THE INDUSTRY i.e. too many seats/price elasticity, we are not going to see a pay increase in the near future. remember, JB really did not make a profit in 4Q 2004 (it's called creative accounting). so to believe that WE DESERVE a raise, possibly to give it back (which the southwest pilots will have to do if oil stays above $50.00) is not wise, its foolish.

our reality today, is to have longevity. if we FOLLOW the typical ALPA mentality, we will end up like the UNITED, DELTA, USAIR, SOON TO BE NORTHWEST AND YES, SOON TO BE SOUTHWEST PILOTS. (if you dont believe me, study their last quarter earnings report)

Bluebrother,
I would say that management is 100% more responsive than the legacy carriers, They do communicate better with us in some areas, but overall they have been pretty unresponsive to our needs and desires.

Yes there has been ther 4Ps and the QSO. The 4Ps were things that needed to be done to correct problems in our initial programs, and to draw on the experience of a bigger pool of knowledge compared to when JB was new and a couple of guys with limited/no airline experience wrote the program. The QSO was was created to try and again fix things in our scheduling and manning areas that had many problems that have always been there, but were ignored or overcome by extra work by our crew members vs smart planning and fair treatment. Both of these areas were "empires" created by those that created them. Well, both emperors are now gone and things are being fixed (I hope).

But remember, these are systems that needed to be fixed. Yet there has been almost no response to our needs. No cost of living increase In almost four years! We have lost 10% of our buying power since the current pay scale took effect. Take into account massive increases in healthcare that we are paying for. I don't see them doing anything to help carry the burden. Just pass it on to the employee. Hey, I would rather have a pay raise and reduced profit sharing. Profit sharing that goes into my 401K doesn't help pay the rent. The way I did the numbers, it would take a 1% reduction in our profit marign to give us (every single JetBlue employee) a 2.5% cost of living raise. So, every year we don't get a cost of living raise, is just the company using us to prop up the annual profit margin.

Can JB afford it? You bet the can. 9% down to 8% for an annual margin is still better than all the other majors. The majors have recently pushed thru 5 separate fare increases. Yet JB only has done one. Hey, raise the ticket prices one dollars and apply the entire increase to employee pay. That will give over $125 per flight, or over $10.5 million dollars for pay increases. That would be $1500 per employee for the year (if evenly split among all employees). I agree that SWA's pay raise was excessive and only could be supported by the hedges they currently enjoy. Will they give it back later? I don't think so. But SWA will have to be careful. Note, SWA pilots and FA a also getting an annual cost of living rasie each year. But they did deserve some type of raise. We deserve the same thing. If JB can predict and manage the annual increase in aircraft MX cost as we grow and our planes get older, they can also plan and account for 2.5-3% annual pay raise. Again, we the employee, should not bear the brunt of JetBlue's growth by not being compensated for what inflation is doing to our purchasing power.

We will survive, even if we get the pay raise we deserve. Remember, it is a cost of living adjustment to correct for inflation, not a massive 20-30% raise. Yet, if we don't get this fixed soon, the mighty UNION may be formed and force the company to give us a big 20-30% raise to correct the unfair treatment of our employees for bearing the burden of no cost of living pay raise for years. Its the pay me now, pay me later deal. A little bit every year is a lot better for everyone vs a big one later.

Just my opinion....

FNG

Last edited by FNG320; 06-18-2005 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 06-18-2005, 03:12 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Lennon
hey only feedback I get is a few obscure and mysterious emails on occasion from the VC. Or, "if you don't like it, there are 10,000 resumes on file".
That's twice you have said this same quote. I would really like to know who it was that told you this? If you would rather keep it anonymous, PM me. But I seriously doubt that anyone of authority told you this directly. Please prove me wrong and if it was just something you saw on a website, or grumblings from the few disgruntled ones we have, well, consider the source.

C yaaa
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Old 06-18-2005, 11:22 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by jetblue320
That's twice you have said this same quote. I would really like to know who it was that told you this? If you would rather keep it anonymous, PM me. But I seriously doubt that anyone of authority told you this directly. Please prove me wrong and if it was just something you saw on a website, or grumblings from the few disgruntled ones we have, well, consider the source.

C yaaa
320,
I personally heard Al Spain say in recurrent training in the Winter of 03/04 in sresponse to the questions about a pay raise. To paraphrase his answer....."There is no reason to give you all a pay raise. We have 6000 applications online of pilots who what to work here." Most of us in that recurrent class to it to mean......"We are not going to give you a raise. If you don't like it here, you can leave" .....In addition he got rather upset with all of the questions conerning pay raise, SWA, benefits, etc. However, too much of this atttitue can result in "Take it or leave it....I'll raise you one UNION and call....." Again, not what we want, but a really bad attitude from management. Recently, I have also talked to other pilots who have gone to recurrent and they also have it from Al Spain, and even from David Neeleman within the last 6 months. It has been said, and defintely is not good. Starts to make the values a one way street. Good for us, but not for management. Where's the CARING value?

Just my opinion....

FNG
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:10 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by FNG320
320,
I personally heard Al Spain say in recurrent training in the Winter of 03/04 in sresponse to the questions about a pay raise. To paraphrase his answer....."There is no reason to give you all a pay raise. We have 6000 applications online of pilots who what to work here." Most of us in that recurrent class to it to mean......"We are not going to give you a raise. If you don't like it here, you can leave" .....In addition he got rather upset with all of the questions conerning pay raise, SWA, benefits, etc. However, too much of this atttitue can result in "Take it or leave it....I'll raise you one UNION and call....." Again, not what we want, but a really bad attitude from management. Recently, I have also talked to other pilots who have gone to recurrent and they also have it from Al Spain, and even from David Neeleman within the last 6 months. It has been said, and defintely is not good. Starts to make the values a one way street. Good for us, but not for management. Where's the CARING value?

Just my opinion....

FNG

OK, thanks for answering my question. I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just wanted clarification. I personally have heard the "grumblings" but had never been told who was the specific quote's source. Now I know. Am I surprised? Well, sort of, but not in denial by any means.

Anyway, hang in there.

C yaaaa
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Old 06-20-2005, 10:18 AM
  #27  
jblumindtrick
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When DN, DB, JO, AS and DB close the door at the end of the day what do you honestly think they have to say about their highest cost labor group, THE PILOTS?
 
Old 06-20-2005, 11:04 AM
  #28  
banger
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I don't know what they say, but I believe they speak with more respect and fairness than the "Heavies" of any other airline.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 12:37 PM
  #29  
jblumindtrick
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Banger,

I agree with you. I am just speaking on a purely business level on the topics at hand.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 05:29 AM
  #30  
banger
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Originally Posted by jblumindtrick
Banger,

I agree with you. I am just speaking on a purely business level on the topics at hand.

I know you do. I don't mean to preach. Heck I'm on reserve right now and my life isn't all that great. But I just jumpseated home on a "U" feeder PSA. Man those guys told me what they made and how awful they had it. Oil is going thru the roof again. I see how paperthin the margins are in this industry and I'm glad I'm not the guys who have to figure out how to eek out a profit. People wank if they have to pay more than $69 to fly JFK-MCO!
Here I see growth, a descent salary, and the promise of better things when the industry straightens out. I even heard a strong rumor of a change to compensation recently which if true would be fantastic.
There are things that could be better but I see change and I personally know 30 guys who would pay $10K to get on here. Not a perfect world but things could be so much worse. Just call me a "cup half-full" guy.

- Banger
 
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