B6Guy

I don't get it, what is the big deal?? JFK captains' schedules come out 3 or 4 days after LGB and FLL, so what?? JFK is a much bigger base. What is the big heartache?? I don't look at LGB and FLL 's schedules and figure I'm being slighted or something because I have to wait a couple more days.

What could possibly be accomplished by delaying the LGB and FLL bids to coinside with the JFK bids. Is there some monitary gain by having your base bid results come sooner?? Is there some one-up-manship competition or something I'm missing? Being the first base to get their schedule is better how??

The facts are that most IOE and OE is done through JFK, and this requires some extra time. Not all Check Airmen are in the two-digit seniority levels, so some CA's have to get the opportunity to FLICA their line before it is locked down and made part of the IOE and OE schedule. With three 48 hour FLICA windows there is a significant delay before the FO bid can start, much less be finished.

You still usually have a week or ten days before the next month starts, much better than at many other airlines. I'm rarely done with FLICA until the day before each and every pairing. There is always a chance to improve the QOL.

Having the IOE and OE schedules pulled only affects the productivity of the FO's if all the CA's were seriously senior, and that just isn't fact. There are a lot of CA's in the 2-300's and that seniority level doesn't net any gravy-train schedules. Most of the FO's I fly with have much better schedules than I can even dream of.

At least as an FO your seniority is always improving, but after upgrade, the improvement in seniority relative to the good pairings is VERY slow. The pairings lately really suck. It is only by luck with FLICA that my schedule is tolerable.

Chilldude

Ahhhh!!!....but it was not that long ago that I was a First Officer, so I haven't forgotten what it's like. I am no where near double digits and probably never will be. I'm just saying it could be a lot worse.

CD

ICON

I was just joking. I was just emphasizing (sp?), how late or scheds come out every month. We usaully do not get our final schedule till the 25-27 of the month. As far as the benefit. It is always easier to plan ahead when your line comes out before the 20th.

FNG320

It is a big deal when you consider that you can't make any plans until the last day or two of the month! Many on this board say that they depend on FLICA to fix their schedule. Well, you really don't have a final schedule until the windows are closed. Then consider that some trips that overlap into the next month may have already started before you even have the final schedule! Yes, you can FLICA hourly to hopefully get the 99% solution and even I do it to make minor changes to my schedule to get a little extra time, improve my commute, change to a better layover, etc. But that is minor compaired to getting our final schedule from the bidding and pto/triptrade/opentime windows. Remember, it is often the use of FLICA in the first come/first serve mode and the trade between crew members that let you fix a problem, and the sooner you get to this mode, the sooner you can fix your schedule, especially when our reserve manning sucks! That's quality of life.....

The OE and IOE don't affect which base is run first. Remember, all FO bids close on the same day, which is 1-3 days after JFK gets the IOE holdbacks. Sit down sometime and run the time line for each base (using the emails from Crew Services) and you will see that LGB and FLL take 2-4 days less to complete than JFK (to the final schedule at the end of the last window). So, why not rotate the bases for who's is done first? Or why not just do JFK's first? IF you lay out the time lines and do JFKs first, all FO get their final schedule at approximately the same time (even with serial processing). Now lets ask the big question. Why can't they run all FOs at the same time? Computers are so fast now, why can't they do it? I am sure they don't run one carrier at a time! So why not just run all FOs at the same time. They are not dependant on each other as they use different pilot groups and pull from different pools of trips?

Since the company has done little in the way of fixing the Flight Scheduling guide, treatment of reserves, cost of living pay raises, etc (even things that cost $0). The little things start to mean more. This is one thing that cost the company $0, but improves the quality of life for the JFK based pilots (FOs maninly, but even Capts to a certain degree). Could it be worse, but not by much. Yet it could be a whole lot better.

Just my opinion.....

FNG

B6Guy

I'm under the impression that all the Capt. bids are fed into the computer and run at the same time, the LGB and FLL are done first because the base size is much smaller. JFK bids take a few extra days.

So I'm assuming that the same is in effect for the FO bids. All fed into the computer, and when a base is done, it is done. JFK takes longer because of the base size.

Do you believe that the JFK FO bids are fed into the computer after the LGB and FLL bids are done??

It's the 22nd of the month, and where is the JFK FO process now?? Done with the 48hr windows or soon to be??

Yes it would be great if we could have a CRAY supercomputer to process our bids through, but I'm damned happy that we have the bidding process we have and have FLICA, Bidding for lines and swapping afterwards is a nightmare.

ICON

It is strange that you find no problem with this at all. What are your options worth?

Chilldude

Amen brother, we do NOT want hard lines. Nightmare is an understatement, especially if you want a few mid-week days off and a few weekend days off in the same month.

My understanding of the schedules is basically that the computer does run all bases pretty quickly, the problem lies in that famous excuse called Unstacking. The bids are run more than once and then fixed up by crew services and scheduling commitee as much as possible to honor as much of the bids as it can. They certainly can't do much if a person has no clue how to bid. With unstacking the computer basically freaks out about a third to a half way through the bid run if too many people ask for the same days off and there are still a number of trips available on those days. The computer then starts dumping trips on lines (unstacking) during those days regardless of if you want it off or not. Once the computer gets rid of some of the trips on those days, it feels that it can start giving those days off again until it has to award the remaining trips to those real junior lineholders. What you get is senior people getting the days off, mid-range seniority working then the junior folks get those days off. That I garuntee will **** you off more especially if a junior line holder gets the days off you requested and you are more than half way up the list. Mind you again if you screw your bid up that's your problem and nothing can be done. Believe me, done that plenty of times. It's that old saying "Be careful what you ask for."

That may be wordy but that's my rough understanding of unstacking, but don't hold me word for word. What has amazed me here though is that someone tries to fix it best as possible. I hate to bring up previous lives, but, those companys run the bids usually only once the scheduling commitee gets a courtesy look at them and then they are released. Very little adjusting and you have to deal with the guy 150 numbers junior to you getting the days off you wanted because of unstacking. I truely am surprised at how much time and effort both sides seem to put into the bids. Don't get me wrong, could something better be done, sure, could we all learn to bid better, most definately.

TTFN
CD

ICON

Guys I don't mean to beat that dead horse, but you can't have it both ways. Every time something is wrong it is compared to a previous companies mean spirited ways and how bad things could be. On the flip side every time something can be improved and someone refers to a former or a better way, many senior pilots scream "If you don't like it , leave". All I am saying is that we can do better and this FO schedule thing slips through the cracks every month. We get our scheds too late, simple as that. Don't you guys find it odd that no first Officers defend this practice.

Later

B6Guy

ICON, so how would you improve this 'late' JFK FO scheduling?. One idea above is to delay FLL and LGB so they are just as 'late' as the JFK sched. Great Values.

I don't understand all the angst over this. I'd be much more concerned about the future of our company. With Delta and NWA just a few weeks away from going into Chapter 11, then we will be competing against FOUR legacies in BK. Keep your fingers crossed it's going to get real interesting.

And what happens when the 190 has an issue and gets grounded, anyone think about that nightmare?? Great for our future and paychecks.

Personally I'm just praying that the company will survive and therefore we all have a steady income in our future.

NO PLACE is perfect, and even if it was perfect for me it wouldn't be for the next guy. Some like blondes, some brunettes, a few go for redheads.
No place is perfect for all. If I were to make my recommendations for what would make us perfect for me virtually no one would agree.

Now, what the hell does the value of my options have to do with this subject?? My options are worth $19.26 per option minus my cut price, and I'm just above water. So what?? I haven't got enough years to go to rebuild what I lost in pension, and will probably have to be a Wallmart greeter after age 60. So What?? I don't feel sorry for myself, it is the way this business is , if I didn't want to do this I wouldn't.

So I guess the company needs to rent time on a CRAY so that the JFK FO bids will come out three days sooner and cost us what, another $100K a month for CRAY time?? What will that do for our future and stock price??

2 BLUE

The 190 grounded. WHO CARES! Just buy more A-320's, A-319's, A-318's or A-315's.

The future of our company. Give me a break...so we go into Chap 11 and give concessions. Then we will have a 2 cent CASM and we will be unstoppable!

If you need another $100K for CRAY time just ask the CFO. That is only 1 weeks salary for him.

oh, the sky is falling.