First Officer Schedules
08-24-2005, 12:40 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
B6Guy and ICON,
There is nothing wrong with my values. How are yours? Just trying to even the playing field. By doing JFK first, JFK will get their final schedule a day or two sooner, where as FLL and LGB will get their final schedule a day or two later than they currently do, however FLL and LGB will still get their final schedule a couple of days before JFK as FLICA windows take longer to process for JFK [a day or more per windows vs a couple of hours for FLL/LGB.] Remember, Classbid is done serial, but the PTO/triptrade/opentime windows in FLICA are done parallel.
Remember, this applies to JFK vs FLL/LGB Captains as well.
Hey, if you want to talk unfair.... JFK FOs bear the brunt of OE and IOE by losing a large number of very productive pairings that are withheld from our bidding, where FLL and LGB lose almost none.
Just my opinion....
FNG[/QUOTE]
FNG Re-read my post(s). I think you are preaching to the choir. Remember who started this thread? I don't see where I was questioning your values.
There is nothing wrong with my values. How are yours? Just trying to even the playing field. By doing JFK first, JFK will get their final schedule a day or two sooner, where as FLL and LGB will get their final schedule a day or two later than they currently do, however FLL and LGB will still get their final schedule a couple of days before JFK as FLICA windows take longer to process for JFK [a day or more per windows vs a couple of hours for FLL/LGB.] Remember, Classbid is done serial, but the PTO/triptrade/opentime windows in FLICA are done parallel.
Remember, this applies to JFK vs FLL/LGB Captains as well.
Hey, if you want to talk unfair.... JFK FOs bear the brunt of OE and IOE by losing a large number of very productive pairings that are withheld from our bidding, where FLL and LGB lose almost none.
Just my opinion....
FNG[/QUOTE]
FNG Re-read my post(s). I think you are preaching to the choir. Remember who started this thread? I don't see where I was questioning your values.
08-24-2005, 01:37 PM
#32
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 44
Agreed
Automatique, I agree, that is what my IOE was, but now guys are getting west coast 4-day trips with 0500 showtimes and 2300 arrivals because the Check Airman isn't senior enough to get a better schedule. Then the IOE guy is not legal to finish until the next week.
Room for improvement in scheduling IOE and OE for sure.
Ok FNG so FLL and LGB get their final schedule 2-3 days earlier, so I guess they get the pretty girls and you get the ugly ones?? Or do you miss happy hour AND have to choose from the UGLY ones??
I still don't get the angst. More of just focusing on something to complain about IMO.
Anybody talk with Greg Hilliard?? and see if the schedules run concurrently or one after the other???
Room for improvement in scheduling IOE and OE for sure.
Ok FNG so FLL and LGB get their final schedule 2-3 days earlier, so I guess they get the pretty girls and you get the ugly ones?? Or do you miss happy hour AND have to choose from the UGLY ones??
I still don't get the angst. More of just focusing on something to complain about IMO.
Anybody talk with Greg Hilliard?? and see if the schedules run concurrently or one after the other???
08-24-2005, 08:36 PM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320
Posts: 76
Yep, Hilliard is gone. He went to FlightLine after he didn't get Crew Services manager (now that would have been interesting).
I think it is funny that people advocate a system that caters to their own individual situation, for right now. One thing you have to remember; a lot of people have made a lot of sacrifice way before any of our times to preserve the seniority system as we know it today. If a check airman is senior to you, he is senior before he is a check airman. That's just how it has to be. I know it is popular to think we can reinvent the wheel around here, but it has been proven a lot of times that just isn’t going to happen.
If you penalize a check airman by making certain trips unavailable to them, you won't be able to retain any talent whatsoever. With a 10% override and limited schedule availability, you are just asking for a mass exodus from the check airman ranks. Read that as in all equipment types.
One more point to consider about senior check airman. If it weren't for them this airline wouldn't be where we are. They had to sacrifice in times when regular line holders enjoyed a great lifestyle. Check airmen historically have to make sacrifices to accomodate the company's needs (hence the override). To ask them to make additional sacrifices at this juncture is just not logical.
One solution for the late bids for JFK FOs is moving the bid up. I know US Airways used to bid on schedules a month before we do. For instance, you bid in July for your September schedule. The problem with that system should be obvious; you have to plan your life after your schedule instead of vice versa. Look at your current month. How many days off would you have been able to anticipate two months ago?
In short, you can theorize all you like on a web board, but any pie-in-the-sky brilliant solutions you think of now will have to work for everyone for all time. It may fit your agenda now, but how about 10 years from now? Before you answer, just think if you are bidding top 20% of CAs in your home city. A lot is possible in the decades ahead, and you can't cut your nose off in spite of your face just to suit your individual seniority level for right now.
Respectfully,
JayDub
I think it is funny that people advocate a system that caters to their own individual situation, for right now. One thing you have to remember; a lot of people have made a lot of sacrifice way before any of our times to preserve the seniority system as we know it today. If a check airman is senior to you, he is senior before he is a check airman. That's just how it has to be. I know it is popular to think we can reinvent the wheel around here, but it has been proven a lot of times that just isn’t going to happen.
If you penalize a check airman by making certain trips unavailable to them, you won't be able to retain any talent whatsoever. With a 10% override and limited schedule availability, you are just asking for a mass exodus from the check airman ranks. Read that as in all equipment types.
One more point to consider about senior check airman. If it weren't for them this airline wouldn't be where we are. They had to sacrifice in times when regular line holders enjoyed a great lifestyle. Check airmen historically have to make sacrifices to accomodate the company's needs (hence the override). To ask them to make additional sacrifices at this juncture is just not logical.
One solution for the late bids for JFK FOs is moving the bid up. I know US Airways used to bid on schedules a month before we do. For instance, you bid in July for your September schedule. The problem with that system should be obvious; you have to plan your life after your schedule instead of vice versa. Look at your current month. How many days off would you have been able to anticipate two months ago?
In short, you can theorize all you like on a web board, but any pie-in-the-sky brilliant solutions you think of now will have to work for everyone for all time. It may fit your agenda now, but how about 10 years from now? Before you answer, just think if you are bidding top 20% of CAs in your home city. A lot is possible in the decades ahead, and you can't cut your nose off in spite of your face just to suit your individual seniority level for right now.
Respectfully,
JayDub
08-25-2005, 07:32 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 157
Originally Posted by ICON
[
FNG Re-read my post(s). I think you are preaching to the choir. Remember who started this thread? I don't see where I was questioning your values.
FNG Re-read my post(s). I think you are preaching to the choir. Remember who started this thread? I don't see where I was questioning your values.
Others,
Everyone seems to be in the us vs them. I am just trying to state the facts (and the data is available for everyone in the awards PDFs, the monthly metrics, classbid and flica). I can totally see where too early can be just as bad as too late. "Flexiblity is the key to airpower, and indecision is the key to flexiblity". It is just that on those months that have trips overlapping the next schedule before you get your final schedule, or bidding days off to overlap/match up with the previous month (last week of Aug and first week of Sept for example) and not knowing till you are in the middle of that first week off to find out "DENIED" really sucks and makes planning difficult if not impossible. (reserves manning is a whole different issue).
First, what is wrong with leveling the playing field as to schedule award time (again I am talking final schedule, after all PTO/triptrade/opentime windows are closed. By running JFK first, then FLL/LGB, JFK gets their schedule earlier by a day or two, FLL/LGB may get their schedule a day or two later than they currently do, but it will still be before JFK gets theirs. This is for both FO and Captains.
Second, JFK FO do bear the brunt of OE and IOE for the entire company! Yes, we checkairmen from SR to JR bidders, but we do have a significant number who are senior and these trips are withheld from line holders, which affect the productivity of JFK FO. It is a fact, check the metrics. Do the SR checkairmen desreve the trips they bid, yes. Do the Jr checkairmen deserve the trips they get, yes. I'm just saying that when you withhold that many highly productive trips from the JFK FO bids, you affect JFK FO productivity. Is there a way to fix it? Yes, award the JFK FO bids first, then buy the trips from the FOs (like other majors do). Will this happen, no. The way we do it does save the most money. Solutions? There may be no perfect solution that works and saves $$$$, but here are some....
1. Farm out some of the OE/IOE to FLL/LGB so that the burden is spread out fairly between the bases (based on hours flown at that base). This may mean that the OE/IOE pilot is basically TDY (in a hotel at JB expense) to that base for IOE, but it does level the burden between the bases.
2. Since Check airmen are vollenteers, make it part of the duty/privledge of being a check airmen that you along with the 10% extra pay, they get "assigned" a certain percentage of their schedule to do OE/IOE. This assigned area (say 20-30%) comes from the bottom third of productive pairings. That would decrease the productivity loss for FO. Yes seniority is king, so if check airmen want to keep bidding 100% of their schedule at their seniority number, then don't vollenteer to be a check airmen (extra pay, pay the price). Easy....
As for the productivity of OE/IOE. Hey, the 25hrs for IOE/15hrs for OE is not that difficult to get in one flying period. Yes, it may take a full 6 days of flying with our current crappy pairngs, but hey, if you finish early all you are going to get is reserve anyway. Plus if seniority is still king, the IOE is the most JR FO and OE is the most JR captain, so no problem.....
I am only trying suggest improvements that help the majority without punishing the minority and don't put an unfair burdon on any one group (Capt/FO/JFK/LGB/FLL/OE/IOE etc). Many of our current systems and procedures give large benefits to small groups at the expense of the whole (I am not talking about seniroity).
Just my opinion....
FNG
Last edited by FNG320; 08-25-2005 at 07:38 AM.
08-25-2005, 08:08 AM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
"1. Farm out some of the OE/IOE to FLL/LGB so that the burden is spread out fairly between the bases (based on hours flown at that base). This may mean that the OE/IOE pilot is basically TDY (in a hotel at JB expense) to that base for IOE, but it does level the burden between the bases. "
We wouldn't want to allow LGB pilots access to the checkairman ranks. What would happen to the very lucrative junkets from the east coast? You know, the ones where a JFK checkairman is paid to DH to LGB crank out a quick line check and DH home. Ahhhh....110 credit hours with a 10% override and premium pay driving me to true airline pilot earning status. Gotta love the system. SOME of us will continue to realize the pay that MOST of us used to enjoy. Just remember - you're lucky to have a job.
We wouldn't want to allow LGB pilots access to the checkairman ranks. What would happen to the very lucrative junkets from the east coast? You know, the ones where a JFK checkairman is paid to DH to LGB crank out a quick line check and DH home. Ahhhh....110 credit hours with a 10% override and premium pay driving me to true airline pilot earning status. Gotta love the system. SOME of us will continue to realize the pay that MOST of us used to enjoy. Just remember - you're lucky to have a job.
08-25-2005, 08:48 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 157
Originally Posted by bluebird
"1. Farm out some of the OE/IOE to FLL/LGB so that the burden is spread out fairly between the bases (based on hours flown at that base). This may mean that the OE/IOE pilot is basically TDY (in a hotel at JB expense) to that base for IOE, but it does level the burden between the bases. "
We wouldn't want to allow LGB pilots access to the checkairman ranks. What would happen to the very lucrative junkets from the east coast? You know, the ones where a JFK checkairman is paid to DH to LGB crank out a quick line check and DH home. Ahhhh....110 credit hours with a 10% override and premium pay driving me to true airline pilot earning status. Gotta love the system. SOME of us will continue to realize the pay that MOST of us used to enjoy. Just remember - you're lucky to have a job.
We wouldn't want to allow LGB pilots access to the checkairman ranks. What would happen to the very lucrative junkets from the east coast? You know, the ones where a JFK checkairman is paid to DH to LGB crank out a quick line check and DH home. Ahhhh....110 credit hours with a 10% override and premium pay driving me to true airline pilot earning status. Gotta love the system. SOME of us will continue to realize the pay that MOST of us used to enjoy. Just remember - you're lucky to have a job.
Hey, wouldn't it be cheaper to deahead the LGB pilot to JFK, buy and FO seat (since he wouldn't be needed) and get the line check at JFK, vs what we do now? Hey, the LGB and FLL line guys would get more pay, the FO a day off and we would save the 10% overide for the checkairmen.
Just my opinion....
FNG
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