jetBlue Hiring
11-13-2013, 05:45 AM
#412
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: 190 FO
Posts: 406
Originally Posted by Bryanintransit
So, in theory, ExpressJet flies for United, Delta and American now if you count ASA and ExpressJet as one. Does that mean you couldn't go to any one of these major carriers? Vague is right.
11-13-2013, 05:47 AM
#413
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,588
Originally Posted by Bryanintransit
So, in theory, ExpressJet flies for United, Delta and American now if you count ASA and ExpressJet as one. Does that mean you couldn't go to any one of these major carriers? Vague is right.
11-13-2013, 05:48 AM
#414
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,512
Sec definitions.
Affiliate. An "affiliate" of, or a person "affiliated" with, a specified person, is a person that directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries, controls, or is controlled by, or is under common control with, the person specified.
Parent. A "parent" of a specified person is an affiliate controlling such person directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries.
I still think I could stretch that and argue it in court that if you came from Skywest you pretty much can't go anywhere.
Either way, will you have the funds laying around to fight a drawn out battle in court?
Affiliate. An "affiliate" of, or a person "affiliated" with, a specified person, is a person that directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries, controls, or is controlled by, or is under common control with, the person specified.
Parent. A "parent" of a specified person is an affiliate controlling such person directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries.
I still think I could stretch that and argue it in court that if you came from Skywest you pretty much can't go anywhere.
Either way, will you have the funds laying around to fight a drawn out battle in court?
11-13-2013, 05:52 AM
#415
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: 190 FO
Posts: 406
Originally Posted by RiddleEagle18
Sec definitions.
Affiliate. An "affiliate" of, or a person "affiliated" with, a specified person, is a person that directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries, controls, or is controlled by, or is under common control with, the person specified.
Parent. A "parent" of a specified person is an affiliate controlling such person directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries.
I still think I could stretch that and argue it in court that if you came from Skywest you pretty much can't go anywhere.
Either way, will you have the funds laying around to fight a drawn out battle in court?
Affiliate. An "affiliate" of, or a person "affiliated" with, a specified person, is a person that directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries, controls, or is controlled by, or is under common control with, the person specified.
Parent. A "parent" of a specified person is an affiliate controlling such person directly, or indirectly through one or more intermediaries.
I still think I could stretch that and argue it in court that if you came from Skywest you pretty much can't go anywhere.
Either way, will you have the funds laying around to fight a drawn out battle in court?
11-13-2013, 05:54 AM
#416
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by benzoate
Jetblue was given very specific language from the PVC legal as to the definitions of "affiliate", "control" and others. This suggested language and definitions for section 15 were also given. Of course all the suggestions were disregarded.
Jetblue's reasoning for not placing any specific language in the PEA's is based on their belief that the "spirit" of the idea is incorporated in the document. Their are countless examples of the "spirit" of the rule being to applied the FSM, disability, insurance, vacation etc. In a calculated manner the airline choses to omit language and definitions in the PEA giving the airline specific flexibility. It's how it has always been done at Jetblue.
Insurance and vacation are one thing but section 15 is supposed to protect our jobs. Any airline with a union is going to eat us alive in a T/E because specific definitions are defensible in courts. The spirit of the section is not.
There is a substantial difference between the words "and" or "or" in a contract. A capital "P" in pilot means something completely different to a lower case "p".
We live in a specific CBA world with a generalized PEA.
Jetblue's reasoning for not placing any specific language in the PEA's is based on their belief that the "spirit" of the idea is incorporated in the document. Their are countless examples of the "spirit" of the rule being to applied the FSM, disability, insurance, vacation etc. In a calculated manner the airline choses to omit language and definitions in the PEA giving the airline specific flexibility. It's how it has always been done at Jetblue.
Insurance and vacation are one thing but section 15 is supposed to protect our jobs. Any airline with a union is going to eat us alive in a T/E because specific definitions are defensible in courts. The spirit of the section is not.
There is a substantial difference between the words "and" or "or" in a contract. A capital "P" in pilot means something completely different to a lower case "p".
We live in a specific CBA world with a generalized PEA.
Nothing is actually done in "spirit" though many things are sold that way. JetBlue is not an exception, this is how the world works. The 8hr Reduced Rest overnight was in "spirit" supposed to be relief for extenuating circumstances beyond airline control and to be used sparingly. Instead, schedules were built upon it, and now we are going to be dealing with 117.
When it's time to toe the line, "spirit" is about as worthless as yesterday's wind. This is true in any industry, with any sort of contract or regulation. "Spirit" is just a vaporous notion that can be swept side-- work rules need to be forged in hard details and specific definitions and bound by a legal contract. Otherwise we are mercy to the whims of those above.
11-13-2013, 06:03 AM
#417
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Originally Posted by MrBigAir
^^^^ THIS
Nothing is actually done in "spirit" though many things are sold that way. JetBlue is not an exception, this is how the world works. The 8hr Reduced Rest overnight was in "spirit" supposed to be relief for extenuating circumstances beyond airline control and to be used sparingly. Instead, schedules were built upon it, and now we are going to be dealing with 117.
When it's time to toe the line, "spirit" is about as worthless as yesterday's wind. This is true in any industry, with any sort of contract or regulation. "Spirit" is just a vaporous notion that can be swept side-- work rules need to be forged in hard details and specific definitions and bound by a legal contract. Otherwise we are mercy to the whims of those above.
Nothing is actually done in "spirit" though many things are sold that way. JetBlue is not an exception, this is how the world works. The 8hr Reduced Rest overnight was in "spirit" supposed to be relief for extenuating circumstances beyond airline control and to be used sparingly. Instead, schedules were built upon it, and now we are going to be dealing with 117.
When it's time to toe the line, "spirit" is about as worthless as yesterday's wind. This is true in any industry, with any sort of contract or regulation. "Spirit" is just a vaporous notion that can be swept side-- work rules need to be forged in hard details and specific definitions and bound by a legal contract. Otherwise we are mercy to the whims of those above.
11-13-2013, 06:09 AM
#418
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,512
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
^^^ AGREE ^^^ Vague language is the way employees always get screwed. The company is very specific about things that THEY demand. All that said, I hate ALPA... so whaddya gonna do...?
11-13-2013, 07:03 AM
#419
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by Beechnut58
That's the way I read it. But we will have to leave it to JB pilots to get some clarity on the meaning of "affiliate" at a road show.
During the last PEA road show in FLL and LGB the airline expressed its opinion of section 15. The airline claimed section 15 was industry leading language. During the discussion several pilots pointed out that the previous PVC legal had made a mistake with the verbiage. This is actually on tape 1.5 minutes into the LGB road show. The previous PVC and PVC legal, which were pro-company, admitted the mistake and used the "spirit" argument to defend the error.
The airline allowed Jetblue pilots to make suggestions on the document during a comment period.
Section 15 was never changed.
Company road shows are designed to express the airlines opinion. Attend if you will but keep this important fact in mind.
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