SWA headed for Chap. 11
09-04-2005, 06:19 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 157
Originally Posted by Meworry?
First of all, I think "Baba Bluey" is one of the funniest names I have heard...should be a name for one of our airplanes.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable.
Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit.
Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell.
Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now).
OK, blast me, I can take it.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable.
Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit.
Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell.
Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now).
OK, blast me, I can take it.
I disagree with you on a whole bunch of points.
First, it is never too early to work for a pay increase. In this industry it normally takes YEARS to negotiate a new contract between labor and management. Well, we don't have a union to represent us, and we are at the mercy of manage to "give" us a pay raise when "THEY" deem it time. If we don't make our desire known now, it will never happen. Remember even when we had the profit margins 2002/2003/2004 to give a pay raies they didn't do it.
Yes, you may be making more than you did someplace else, but the pay that a new FO gets is 10% less than the FO that was hired in the fall of 2001. (it is called inflation!). Not to mention the crappy medical plan we now have that cost us hundreds of $$$ more per month/year than last year (and for crappier service), and that great E190 pay scale for new FOs! (Oh I guess 10% of nothing is still nothing.....)
Why not raise prices to pay for a pay raise? Employees/Labor, just like maintenace and fuel is a cost of doing business. Just because they can still get us to work for less does not mean they should or that is fair or right. Management can predict/forcast our increasing mx cost due to fleet growth, as well as to aging aircraft. They can also predict an annual cost of living raise every year. IF they plan on it, they will make it work. We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available. Every other major airline is using this method to drive their labor cost down. We do not need to follow the "Market Share" model that is killing the majors. Ask anyone who owns a business (your local hardware, office supply, diner, and you see them say that "IF you are not charging enough for your product to make a profit, you have to raise your prices to do so." That is business 101. Why sould we be the spring in this equation? Why should we let JB follow this proven path to failure?
As for a raise later vs now, remember, compounding. The 10% we have already lost, we will never make that pay up. That is 10-20K you will never see. Houw much could that have been in your 401K for 20/30/40 years?
I don't think any one of us is asking for an unreasonable pay raise. Just cost of living. But the longer it doesn't happen, the closer we get to a UNION, and the closer we get to asking/demanding that really big 10-30% pay raise to makeup for what we have lost. FRAM say pay me now, or pay me later. Remember, pay me later always cost more in the long run.
I don't plan on my options being worth a dime. Remember 80% of the options in the pilot corps (my guess based on discussion with other pilots) are worth $0. Only those guys who are pre-IPO have any value to their options.
I realize that if we do well and survive this mess, we will be in an even stronger postion. But if they are not going to pay me, then compensate me in other ways. How about some Incentive restricted stock (not options, but real stock). Hey, if the SEC is going to make JB expense them anyway, about something I can get my hands on and are really worth something. How about fixing crew services, minimum trip/duty rig, etc. I know they all cost $$$$, but some don't dost as much as others.
Enough for now. Just my 1.2 cents (inflation has reduced the value of my 2 cents)
Just my opinion.....
FNG
Last edited by FNG320; 09-04-2005 at 07:12 AM.
09-04-2005, 09:09 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by FNG320
I disagree with you on a whole bunch of points.
Fair enough.
First, it is never too early to work for a pay increase. In this industry it normally takes YEARS to negotiate a new contract between labor and management. Well, we don't have a union to represent us, and we are at the mercy of manage to "give" us a pay raise when "THEY" deem it time. If we don't make our desire known now, it will never happen. Remember even when we had the profit margins 2002/2003/2004 to give a pay raies they didn't do it.
Maybe they were smart enough to look ahead, which is what other airline brass failed to do 6-7 years ago. And they definitely know we want better pay. Our margins declined every year, and we just barely made a profit in 2004...net margins are what count most.
Yes, you may be making more than you did someplace else, but the pay that a new FO gets is 10% less than the FO that was hired in the fall of 2001. (it is called inflation!). Not to mention the crappy medical plan we now have that cost us hundreds of $$$ more per month/year than last year (and for crappier service), and that great E190 pay scale for new FOs! (Oh I guess 10% of nothing is still nothing.....)
The market is what it is. And if you can solve the healthcare cost problems in this country, my hat's off to you. We'll pay for medical care one way or another.
Why not raise prices to pay for a pay raise? Employees/Labor, just like maintenace and fuel is a cost of doing business. Just because they can still get us to work for less does not mean they should or that is fair or right. Management can predict/forcast our increasing mx cost due to fleet growth, as well as to aging aircraft. They can also predict an annual cost of living raise every year. IF they plan on it, they will make it work. We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available. Every other major airline is using this method to drive their labor cost down. We do not need to follow the "Market Share" model that is killing the majors. Ask anyone who owns a business (your local hardware, office supply, diner, and you see them say that "IF you are not charging enough for your product to make a profit, you have to raise your prices to do so." That is business 101. If only it was that easy. Why sould we be the spring in this equation? Why should we let JB follow this proven path to failure?
I just think there is a bigger picture (business 201). Market share and growth are part and parcel of a publicly traded company. They key is to grow sustainably without sacrificing profitability, but you sometimes have to give up margins to do so. My father ran a small business for decades, and you can't just raise prices to make a profit. I am not convinced we have the pricing power you suggest. If the other airlines would follow us so quickly, why are they waiting for us? They could raise prices now. We are full, their load factors are high. We could not possibly absorb many more customers, because we are not big enough. As I stated elsewhere, we are in a game of musical chairs that we have to win. The name of the game is staying liquid and remaining in business until things shake out, while still trying to grow to be able to take advantage when someone else fails.
As for a raise later vs now, remember, compounding. The 10% we have already lost, we will never make that pay up. That is 10-20K you will never see. Houw much could that have been in your 401K for 20/30/40 years?
I don't think any one of us is asking for an unreasonable pay raise. Just cost of living. But the longer it doesn't happen, the closer we get to a UNION, and the closer we get to asking/demanding that really big 10-30% pay raise to makeup for what we have lost. FRAM say pay me now, or pay me later. Remember, pay me later always cost more in the long run.
Your math is right, just does not fit into big picture (my opinion).
I don't plan on my options being worth a dime. Remember 80% of the options in the pilot corps (my guess based on discussion with other pilots) are worth $0. Only those guys who are pre-IPO have any value to their options.
It's not what they are worth now, it's what they are worth seven years from now, or longer. I'm not planning on them either, but I would like them to be worth something, and we need a successful company for that.
I realize that if we do well and survive this mess, we will be in an even stronger postion. But if they are not going to pay me, then compensate me in other ways. How about some Incentive restricted stock (not options, but real stock). Hey, if the SEC is going to make JB expense them anyway, about something I can get my hands on and are really worth something. How about fixing crew services, minimum trip/duty rig, etc. I know they all cost $$$$, but some don't dost as much as others.
No arguments here.
Enough for now. Just my 1.2 cents (inflation has reduced the value of my 2 cents)
Just my opinion.....
FNG
Fair enough.
First, it is never too early to work for a pay increase. In this industry it normally takes YEARS to negotiate a new contract between labor and management. Well, we don't have a union to represent us, and we are at the mercy of manage to "give" us a pay raise when "THEY" deem it time. If we don't make our desire known now, it will never happen. Remember even when we had the profit margins 2002/2003/2004 to give a pay raies they didn't do it.
Maybe they were smart enough to look ahead, which is what other airline brass failed to do 6-7 years ago. And they definitely know we want better pay. Our margins declined every year, and we just barely made a profit in 2004...net margins are what count most.
Yes, you may be making more than you did someplace else, but the pay that a new FO gets is 10% less than the FO that was hired in the fall of 2001. (it is called inflation!). Not to mention the crappy medical plan we now have that cost us hundreds of $$$ more per month/year than last year (and for crappier service), and that great E190 pay scale for new FOs! (Oh I guess 10% of nothing is still nothing.....)
The market is what it is. And if you can solve the healthcare cost problems in this country, my hat's off to you. We'll pay for medical care one way or another.
Why not raise prices to pay for a pay raise? Employees/Labor, just like maintenace and fuel is a cost of doing business. Just because they can still get us to work for less does not mean they should or that is fair or right. Management can predict/forcast our increasing mx cost due to fleet growth, as well as to aging aircraft. They can also predict an annual cost of living raise every year. IF they plan on it, they will make it work. We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available. Every other major airline is using this method to drive their labor cost down. We do not need to follow the "Market Share" model that is killing the majors. Ask anyone who owns a business (your local hardware, office supply, diner, and you see them say that "IF you are not charging enough for your product to make a profit, you have to raise your prices to do so." That is business 101. If only it was that easy. Why sould we be the spring in this equation? Why should we let JB follow this proven path to failure?
I just think there is a bigger picture (business 201). Market share and growth are part and parcel of a publicly traded company. They key is to grow sustainably without sacrificing profitability, but you sometimes have to give up margins to do so. My father ran a small business for decades, and you can't just raise prices to make a profit. I am not convinced we have the pricing power you suggest. If the other airlines would follow us so quickly, why are they waiting for us? They could raise prices now. We are full, their load factors are high. We could not possibly absorb many more customers, because we are not big enough. As I stated elsewhere, we are in a game of musical chairs that we have to win. The name of the game is staying liquid and remaining in business until things shake out, while still trying to grow to be able to take advantage when someone else fails.
As for a raise later vs now, remember, compounding. The 10% we have already lost, we will never make that pay up. That is 10-20K you will never see. Houw much could that have been in your 401K for 20/30/40 years?
I don't think any one of us is asking for an unreasonable pay raise. Just cost of living. But the longer it doesn't happen, the closer we get to a UNION, and the closer we get to asking/demanding that really big 10-30% pay raise to makeup for what we have lost. FRAM say pay me now, or pay me later. Remember, pay me later always cost more in the long run.
Your math is right, just does not fit into big picture (my opinion).
I don't plan on my options being worth a dime. Remember 80% of the options in the pilot corps (my guess based on discussion with other pilots) are worth $0. Only those guys who are pre-IPO have any value to their options.
It's not what they are worth now, it's what they are worth seven years from now, or longer. I'm not planning on them either, but I would like them to be worth something, and we need a successful company for that.
I realize that if we do well and survive this mess, we will be in an even stronger postion. But if they are not going to pay me, then compensate me in other ways. How about some Incentive restricted stock (not options, but real stock). Hey, if the SEC is going to make JB expense them anyway, about something I can get my hands on and are really worth something. How about fixing crew services, minimum trip/duty rig, etc. I know they all cost $$$$, but some don't dost as much as others.
No arguments here.
Enough for now. Just my 1.2 cents (inflation has reduced the value of my 2 cents)
Just my opinion.....
FNG
MW?
09-04-2005, 12:26 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by FNG320
We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available.
FNG
FNG
I don't believe this is true. Delta (via SONG) is doing just the opposite. Charging below market rates on routes in direct competition with us. In fact they are pulling Song planes off profitable routes and putting them on routes that lose money just to compete with us. This will eventually BK Song but until that happens we have very little pricing power there.
09-05-2005, 07:44 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Meworry?
First of all, I think "Baba Bluey" is one of the funniest names I have heard...should be a name for one of our airplanes.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable.
Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit.
Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell.
Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now).
OK, blast me, I can take it.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable.
Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit.
Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell.
Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now).
OK, blast me, I can take it.
It worked out well for me... I got mine screw the rest of you!
09-07-2005, 04:41 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Meworry?
No doubt Cliff notes were a big part of your education. Not what I said.
For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
This sound a lot like "I got mine, screw the rest... they knew what they were in for..."
Maybe you should worry.
Stillflyn
09-09-2005, 02:16 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by BlueSide
I might have used cliff notes in the past but I"m still pretty sure this is what you said. Let me take one of your quotes.....
For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
This sound a lot like "I got mine, screw the rest... they knew what they were in for..."
Maybe you should worry.
Stillflyn
For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states.
This sound a lot like "I got mine, screw the rest... they knew what they were in for..."
Maybe you should worry.
Stillflyn
Do I care what you think of my opinion? Only to the extent that I wish you would take the time to be a little more thoughtful. You never know, you might actually come up with a good idea.
Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box.
09-10-2005, 05:07 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Meworry?
Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
