Bozo the pilot

You're a company plant or fear junkie. Vote NO and lets see what they do- Maybe they'll up the offer. You're a sheep Seekingblue.

Bluedriver

You didn't answer the question. The only protections and guarantees are what are in the TA. You can read company and union emails, but if it isn't written in the TA it's just fluff or opinion.

Do you have ANY idea how many scope givebacks didn't go "as the pilots or union expected"? Nearly every scope give back in history has been a mistake with hindsight. It's just true.

Maybe this one will end differently. But I have a question, if this will result in such dramatic growth for JB, why are the growth guarantees IN THE TA, the only enforceable document, so paltry? While they guarantee no shrinkage from 2021 levels, they essentially guarantee no less than zero growth. Why?

And if it's so great for JB, why such a paltry financial benefit to the pilots when it's the pilots who must allow the full scope of the deal?

I'm not trying to be mean, but you seem to have no idea what is an enforceable document or a fluff email, or any sense of airline scope history.

Can you give an example of a mainline pilot group giving up scope and winning like Charlie Sheen?

seekingblue

thanks. Maybe look at my past post history? That will paint a clearer picture of who I am and my views.

maybe they will up the offer, maybe they won’t. Neither of us know that.

why does agreeing with the MEC,NC, & ALPA scope guys make me a sheep? Just because I look at the same data set and come up with a different answer doesn’t make me a sheep. Are you the guy who sees a good deal, sees the union support and votes opposite “hoping for a better deal?”

Bozo the pilot

What is in it for us?

seekingblue

you honestly seem like a good dude. But the first thing I wrote in my post was “read the TA.” It’s the first thing I did— and my first answer to you. I’m supplementing the TA with talking to people smarter than me (NC/ Scope guy etc). So, to clarify, I'm reading the TA to understand. Then asking the union probing questions RE: the TA. Once I'm asking the NC guy questions, my next question is always "where in the contract is this prohibited.". This way I know they really cannot do those things.

We still haven’t given relief on capacity purchase agreement. We still have to compete with AA.

The world isn't coming to an end-- just trying to be thoughtful about this.

seekingblue

The chance at more flying. 2% raise. No furlough clause extended. Can't shrink in time the agreement starts and ends, union can decide to extend or not.

Bluedriver

I will just say most mainline scope givebacks came back to bite the pilots in the butt, hard. And most of their unions told them at the time that "it was a good deal" or "the company wouldn't do that".

Keep that in mind.

seekingblue

That's a very fair point.

I think section 1 really still gives us robust protections. Also, no capacity purchase agreements. Is key. It's really a network planning code share which will probably (granted no promise) of growth. That said, we cannot shrink (in the LOA). That is big for me as well.

I actually voted for the contract because of section 1.

I'm voting for this because we can still say no (granted down the road), no furlough clause extended and cannot shrink.

PotatoChip

We can say no in five years, plus 24 months. I don’t see that as much of a benefit.

Atl320

We cannot shrink from metrics that are yet to be determined (2021 numbers). We are currently a fraction of what we were before the pandemic. Our pilot staffing is based on pre pandemic levels. 100% of a fraction is still a fraction.