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Old 04-03-2017, 06:59 AM
  #3171  
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Originally Posted by capt707
I seriously hope they are going start running new hire classes with more pilots. 14 new hires per class every 2 weeks is not going to cut it, especially if they want 600 total Airbus FOs in JFK alone by August, they still need to fill almost 70 Bus FO slots in JFK alone!

If last weeks fiasco of a minor IROP and severe understaffing is any indication of how this summer is going to go, we are going to be in deep sh!t! I just wish people would STOP helping out the damn company and fix their incompetent planning and mistakes! Be ready for daily RSAs and e-mails from CPs begging to help out and cover flights this summer.

I stopped commuting on us a few weeks ago, because for some f'ing reason we cannot run an on-time airline! Consistently 2-3 hr delays, even on the clearest of days. It's absolutely ridiculous!

Thank you to all the other airlines for getting me to and from work on-time.... and I didn't have to clean
A class of 24 new-hires starts in a couple weeks.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:01 AM
  #3172  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
"Can my scheduled report time be adjusted to change my FDP?
A-16. FDP limits are determined by scheduled reporting time and not by actual reporting time (the scheduled reporting time for a FDP is created once that FDP has been assigned to a flightcrew member)."



Talk to the FAA POI or ALPA dudes if you still have an issue with it. I get it...you don't like the limo time. If I commute in 3 hours before my flight and I'm at the airport, that doesn't mean I'm on duty. Transportation to and from a hotel isn't duty. Duty is your scheduled show time until duty off. FDP is scheduled duty on until block in.

You are required to have 10 hours rest between duty off (15 after block in, or later if you end up having to stay later, which you can and are obligated to correct with CS if that happens) and show time the next day. Only 8 of those hours have to give you the opportunity to have sleep in suitable accommodations, which gives 2 hours combined on each end for transpo. If you don't have 8 hours due to a real early transpo time, or 10 hours total, that's on you to correct with the company. 117, nor our contract (or lack thereof) gives us any leeway on that, other than you calling in fatigued. You can call CS and try to get it moved later, then try the CPO if that doesn't work. But I don't think that will work out.

I dont think this is the first time someone's asked about this scenario. If it were a 117 issue, I think it would have been addressed by now.
So you are saying that if they "require" me to show 5 hours early by scheduling a shuttle that way, it wouldn't be duty? I think this may be an area ripe for abuse if you are correct.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:58 AM
  #3173  
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Originally Posted by nuball5
A class of 24 new-hires starts in a couple weeks.
Too late and not enough if you ask me... it's April and look at the reserve grid and bid divisors for May.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:24 AM
  #3174  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas
So you are saying that if they "require" me to show 5 hours early by scheduling a shuttle that way, it wouldn't be duty? I think this may be an area ripe for abuse if you are correct.
I'm not saying anything other than what 117 and the ALPA 117 guide say. But I don't think that scenario would happen. Any time I've had a limo DH before a flight (HPN hotel limo to JFK for example), my report time is when that limo is, and that is the show time for the day off of which my FDP is calculated. A hotel that requires transpo 5 hours early to get to the hotel probably wouldn't happen and would involve a DH/limo leg. And anytime I've wanted a hotel shuttle to take me at a different time than the one API schedules, I've been able to work that out with them (except in places that don't have scheduled times). In the case of a transpo company with a prearranged time, and my report time is based on my airport show and not a limo/van show, if the van time was excessively early, I'd try to work it out with the transpo company if I had the number, otherwise I'd tell CS and my crew I'll meet the van at such and such time, which I know will still get me to the gate 45 prior, otherwise I'd be fatigued and have to call out.

I don't think this is an area ripe for abuse. I've had shuttles get me to the airport 1:15 prior to departure. In some cases we could have (or have) taken a later shuttle, or moved our transpo time, but went early to get food or whatever. I'm always guaranteed 8 hours of sleep opportunity and 10 hours rest by 117. I always have the fatigue card. If a van was scheduled 5 hours prior to my show, and it's a 15 minute van ride, and CS/transpo company wouldnt change it, I'd politely tell each that I'll be on the hotel curb 30 prior to my show with my crew, and if the van driver wants to sit for an extra 4:30, that's on him. And if he leaves, and I can't get to the airport, the airplane probably won't make it out without me. I think there are enough checks and balances, common sense, and tools at our disposal to prevent this. And as much clownery as I see at BJ, I haven't had an unreasonable van time yet that I couldn't fix. Usually API schedules everything, is conservative with their transpo times, but all parties go with what the captain says will happen and have seemed, at least in my experience, reasonable about it.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:30 AM
  #3175  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas
So you are saying that if they "require" me to show 5 hours early by scheduling a shuttle that way, it wouldn't be duty? I think this may be an area ripe for abuse if you are correct.
Depends on whether or not the transportation is "local in nature." Transporation not local in nature is not considered part of a rest period. The eight hour sleep opportunity (not 8 hours behind the door, unless you sleep in your uniform and shave in your sleep) should protect against abuse.

Edit: BeatNavy beat me to it and said it better
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:34 AM
  #3176  
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So if I show 35 mins prior to show (AUS) and the whiz lady is there waiting for me can I refuse? I'm not on duty. Right?
If I'm on the AC 5 mins prior and an incident/accident happens onboard or to the AC, I don't have to fill out paper work right?

Think about it. The Feds aren't on your side
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:04 AM
  #3177  
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If you're sweating 5 min on the wiz quiz.... you may wanna consider 12 steps!

But seriously... tell her you're not on duty yet nor are you refusing the test, as soon as you go on duty you'd be happy to give her any fluid she desires. But the wiz lady will never meet you before a flight only after... unless there is cause.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:33 AM
  #3178  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
If you're sweating 5 min on the wiz quiz.... you may wanna consider 12 steps!

But seriously... tell her you're not on duty yet nor are you refusing the test, as soon as you go on duty you'd be happy to give her any fluid she desires. But the wiz lady will never meet you before a flight only after... unless there is cause.
I'm just saying hypothetical Point being you're assuming duty once you walk on the airport. Not an inch, not a minute. Scheduling won't wave 5 mins inside the 11hrs to swap a trip, why should we give 5 mins to the company.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:37 AM
  #3179  
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Originally Posted by N311JB
I'm just saying hypothetical Point being you're assuming duty once you walk on the airport. Not an inch, not a minute. Scheduling won't wave 5 mins inside the 11hrs to swap a trip, why should we give 5 mins to the company.
We are talking about scheduling times, report times, and FDP considerations. Clearly if you enter an airplane and break something, you can't claim being off the clock. If you show up to the airplane 20 mins before show and start doing your job, you are doing your "duty" just off the clock for purposes of 117 duty/FDP purposes (and pay/rig purposes as well), since that is clearly based off of scheduled report time, not actual report time, and doesn't change based on actual report time. if you go through TSA 10 mins before you are "on duty" and they catch you drunk, you are still getting hammertimed regardless of you officially being on the clock for the purposes of scheduling and FDP limits. This is where common sense and knowing the difference between scheduled report times and actual report times comes in to play.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:00 AM
  #3180  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
I'm not saying anything other than what 117 and the ALPA 117 guide say. But I don't think that scenario would happen. Any time I've had a limo DH before a flight (HPN hotel limo to JFK for example), my report time is when that limo is, and that is the show time for the day off of which my FDP is calculated. A hotel that requires transpo 5 hours early to get to the hotel probably wouldn't happen and would involve a DH/limo leg. And anytime I've wanted a hotel shuttle to take me at a different time than the one API schedules, I've been able to work that out with them (except in places that don't have scheduled times). In the case of a transpo company with a prearranged time, and my report time is based on my airport show and not a limo/van show, if the van time was excessively early, I'd try to work it out with the transpo company if I had the number, otherwise I'd tell CS and my crew I'll meet the van at such and such time, which I know will still get me to the gate 45 prior, otherwise I'd be fatigued and have to call out.

I don't think this is an area ripe for abuse. I've had shuttles get me to the airport 1:15 prior to departure. In some cases we could have (or have) taken a later shuttle, or moved our transpo time, but went early to get food or whatever. I'm always guaranteed 8 hours of sleep opportunity and 10 hours rest by 117. I always have the fatigue card. If a van was scheduled 5 hours prior to my show, and it's a 15 minute van ride, and CS/transpo company wouldnt change it, I'd politely tell each that I'll be on the hotel curb 30 prior to my show with my crew, and if the van driver wants to sit for an extra 4:30, that's on him. And if he leaves, and I can't get to the airport, the airplane probably won't make it out without me. I think there are enough checks and balances, common sense, and tools at our disposal to prevent this. And as much clownery as I see at BJ, I haven't had an unreasonable van time yet that I couldn't fix. Usually API schedules everything, is conservative with their transpo times, but all parties go with what the captain says will happen and have seemed, at least in my experience, reasonable about it.

You and I know that when Blewjet controls the shuttle we always end up showing around 30 early. It IS being abused. They push the limits as much as they can.
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