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Old 04-25-2023, 05:29 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by nitefreight View Post
Six weeks ago, the court gave Kalitta an opportunity to supplement their evidence to explain how accommodating unvaccinated pilots would somehow implicate the CBA or violate seniority. Kalitta's main argument is that its CBA has a “seniority-based bid assignment system” that would be affected by allowing unvaccinated pilots to fly select schedules. But they fail to mention what every Kalitta pilot deals with every month: Once the bids are made by seniority, the company then shuffles pilot schedules around at will without violating the CBA. Apparently Kalitta had nothing more to offer on this issue, so three weeks ago they waived their right to supplement their argument. They must have a lot to hide. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vjd...ew?usp=sharing

Now it's the pilots' turn to ask the court for discovery, including taking depositions of certain managers. Some of the questions are included in the affidavit. The pilots' motion and affidavit were just filed 4/14/23.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GU6...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HX3...ew?usp=sharing

I've been thinking about this since I read your post and the links a week ago. To me it appears as if the documents and examples above prove the companies point about moving pilots around after the bid. The company contends that not having everyone vaccinated would put undue stress on the schedule and was unfair to other pilots if they couldn't use any pilot on any flight the company operates. The company has operated this way for years and certainly can claim past precedence reaching far back before COVID. I've read every sentence of the public documents on this case, but this particular argument seems to be counterproductive to your side.
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Old 04-25-2023, 09:01 PM
  #62  
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The fact that the company has been shuffling people around for years without regard to seniority or the CBA doesn't support the company's argument here. If it did, they would have certainly argued it. Litigation always seems to come down to very narrow issues of law that sometime appear to be counterintuitive. Maybe this brief filed just a few hours ago will help you to understand why their shuffling of schedules without affecting the CBA avoids the preclusive (preemptive) effect of the RLA. The current battle is over whether the CBA requires interpretation for Kalitta to accommodate 5% of unvaccinated pilots. It doesn't, any more than Kalitta's accommodating those who have no Chinese visa or those who have a prior criminal record and can't fly to certain countries. Those issues have always been handled outside the CBA. Thanks for reading!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hVy...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 03-16-2024, 07:43 AM
  #63  
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Any updates? Holding my breath on the big payout.
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Old 03-16-2024, 02:35 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by proxima3003 View Post
Any updates? Holding my breath on the big payout.
troll post, if you were part of the class action you would already know!
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Old 03-23-2024, 04:56 PM
  #65  
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This is the latest. What do you guys think???

https://www.law360.com/articles/1809...emption-battle

https://freeimage.host/i/JhWdxElLaw360 (March 21, 2024, 5:45 PM EDT) -- A Sixth Circuit panel pressed on Thursday a cargo airline and pilots who say they were unlawfully fired for refusing COVID-19 vaccinations about the pilots' union contract, with one judge asking whether the open questions about their collective bargaining agreement meant the discrimination case was preempted. The three-judge panel heard arguments in Kalitta Air pilots' challenge to a Michigan district court's June 2023 conclusion that their religious and disability discrimination claims, which came after they were fired for refusing COVID-19 vaccines, were largely trumped by the Railway Labor Act. The pilots' union is the Air Line Pilots Association. The RLA requires disputes rooted in the interpretation of collective bargaining agreements to be arbitrated — something U.S. Circuit Judge Karen Nelson Moore pointed out. "But if there are all these questions about how the CBA is involved — or not — doesn't RLA preemption require that this not be decided by the District Court?" asked Judge Moore.

Arguing on the pilots' behalf, John Clay Sullivan of S L Law responded that that was one of the mistakes the district court made. "Referencing the terms of the CBA [is] not the same thing as interpreting the CBA," he said. The pilots, who worked for the Michigan-based cargo airline, are seeking to revive their suit that they were illegally denied religious or medical accommodations from the company's COVID-19 vaccine mandate and were instead fired for refusing jabs. The September 2022 proposed class action was initially brought by 11 named plaintiffs.

The district court order dismissed two plaintiffs from the suit and tossed three religious- and disability-based discrimination claims made against the airline by several other plaintiffs. U.S. District Judge Thomas Ludington subsequently stayed the case for appeal on the issue of whether the dismissed claims were in fact precluded by the RLA prior to discovery kicking off on the claims that remain pending. The airline has argued that there are a litany of reasons for upholding the trial court's decision, including that any analysis of the pilots' requested accommodations would necessarily require the court to delve into the fine points of the parties' CBA. It says the RLA instructs that such analyses must be kicked to an arbitrator, not overseen by a court.

One issue that received a lot of focus Thursday is a provision in the contract that allows pilots to choose their routes and schedules based on seniority. Kalitta's lawyer, Nicholas Bart of Fitzpatrick & Hunt, cited previous Sixth Circuit decisions he said show that accommodating workers by disrupting a CBA's seniority-based bidding system "necessarily requires interpretation of the CBA and necessarily requires an undue hardship for the company, because the violation of the CBA itself is the undue burden." At several points, the judges asked whether certain sections of the CBA were in the record for them to look at, but were generally met with a no.

On Thursday, Judge Moore asked whether the CBA section on seniority was in the court record. Bart said they had "referenced relevant portions." "Don't you think it would have been helpful to the district court, and to us, to actually have that?" chimed in U.S. Senior Circuit Judge Alice M. Batchelder. "Your Honor, it may have been helpful," Bart responded. "However, when the standard is if the court must interpret any provision of the CBA, the analysis must stop. Because the dispute is a minor dispute that must be resolved by arbitration." "So you're saying no matter what it says, if it's in there, and the court eventually might have to look at it — that's all we need to know?" Judge Batchelder asked. "Your Honor, not that the court may have to look at it, but that the court may have to interpret it," Bart said. The pilots were represented at oral argument by John Clay Sullivan of S L Law. The airline was represented at oral argument by Nicholas C. Bart of Fitzpatrick & Hunt Pagano Aubert. The case is Robert Odell Jr. et al. v. Kalitta Air LLC et al., case number 23-1703, in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit.
Audi file of the entire 32 minutes hearing here linked below if you want to listen for yourselves!!! Please post what you think after listening!!

https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/int...%20et%20al.mp3
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Old 03-31-2024, 03:33 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by jetlagging View Post
This is the latest. What do you guys think???

https://www.law360.com/articles/1809...emption-battle



Audi file of the entire 32 minutes hearing here linked below if you want to listen for yourselves!!! Please post what you think after listening!!

https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/int...%20et%20al.mp3
Wow. Just wow.

The pilots attorney is a) an idiot and b) if his interpretation of a CBA holds, that would essentially destroy seniority as we know it. Thankfully based on the questions, it's unlikely it will as his arguments are absurd.

The fact that there is a provision that Kalitta can reassign pilots after bidding, the antivaxx pilots attorney is claiming that means there is no seniority violation when a senior pilot is displaced from his line and a junior antivaxxer gets put on that line.

Pilots attorney is getting destroyed. It's actually a hilarious listen. The pilots attorney literally sounds like he is about to cry at the end. Amazing.

"Unvaccinated pilots are a protected class"? Hahaha!

Lol.

Last edited by dera; 03-31-2024 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 04-01-2024, 07:02 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
Wow. Just wow.

The pilots attorney is a) an idiot and b) if his interpretation of a CBA holds, that would essentially destroy seniority as we know it. Thankfully based on the questions, it's unlikely it will as his arguments are absurd.

The fact that there is a provision that Kalitta can reassign pilots after bidding, the antivaxx pilots attorney is claiming that means there is no seniority violation when a senior pilot is displaced from his line and a junior antivaxxer gets put on that line.

Pilots attorney is getting destroyed. It's actually a hilarious listen. The pilots attorney literally sounds like he is about to cry at the end. Amazing.

"Unvaccinated pilots are a protected class"? Hahaha!
Lol.
Just want to make sure I am reading this right. Dera is a Union member? If not please disregard my statement.

A Union member criticizes fellow union members for attempting to be made whole regarding a decision that was clearly in their rights to make. President Biden had canceled the military requirement for Vax prior to K4 deadline. This Union member criticizes these pilots for what reason? Is it for us to learn and correct mistakes that are being made? Is it to stroke his ego and make him feel superior to said pilots? Is he an attorney specializing in these types of court cases? Is he a whining snot nosed little brat? I really don't know but can come up with some pretty good personal opinions on the matter.

Sometimes it is better to just keep your mouth closed or typing fingers still. Quite disgusting behavior from a fellow Union member.
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Old 04-01-2024, 09:00 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by maxjet View Post
Just want to make sure I am reading this right. Dera is a Union member? If not please disregard my statement.

A Union member criticizes fellow union members for attempting to be made whole regarding a decision that was clearly in their rights to make. President Biden had canceled the military requirement for Vax prior to K4 deadline. This Union member criticizes these pilots for what reason? Is it for us to learn and correct mistakes that are being made? Is it to stroke his ego and make him feel superior to said pilots? Is he an attorney specializing in these types of court cases? Is he a whining snot nosed little brat? I really don't know but can come up with some pretty good personal opinions on the matter.

Sometimes it is better to just keep your mouth closed or typing fingers still. Quite disgusting behavior from a fellow Union member.
Did you listen to the argument?

And show me where I criticized the pilots? I did not. I criticized their attorney, who is clearly way out of his league with this case.
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Old 04-02-2024, 08:36 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by dera View Post
Did you listen to the argument?

And show me where I criticized the pilots? I did not. I criticized their attorney, who is clearly way out of his league with this case.
Unvaccinated pilots are a protected class"? Hahaha!
Lol.

If you did not mean to disparage anyone, perhaps you would be better off to just delete your post?
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Old 04-02-2024, 01:13 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by maxjet View Post
Unvaccinated pilots are a protected class"? Hahaha!
Lol.

If you did not mean to disparage anyone, perhaps you would be better off to just delete your post?
By using that argument (Plaintiff) he is arguing that a senior pilot who may have a domestic line award such as the mail run which was there at the time, Should be removed to accomodate the unvaccinated pilot. Are we saying that religous exemptions circumvent the CBA? I think what Dera is laughing at is that Unvaccinated pilots in this case can circumvent the CBA. (It can't and should not!) If I decided today to become a Seventh Day Adventist Could I/Should I be able to circumvent the CBA to accomodate by refusing to work on the sabbath? I think Dera makes a good point that what the attorney in this case is making a poor argument.
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