Change is in the air
10-23-2023 | 02:54 PM
#41
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 430
Likes: 73
It's obvious that you have no understanding how business works. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're taking something personally that really isn't. American Airlines and United Airlines are both Fortune 50 companies worth more than 25 Billion dollars. Each. They generate over 6 billion dollars in revenue a year. They each have around 100,000 employees.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
10-23-2023 | 04:45 PM
#42
Tuberriffic
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Likes: 6
From: Hopefully the bunk
Per your example, $6,000,000,000 of revenue generated by 100,000 employees works out to $60,000.00 worth of revenue per employee.
$400,000,000 of revenue generated by 3,000 employees, on the other hand, is $133,333.33 per head.
But maybe that logic is flawed. Since we are just talking about pilots, let's try dividing revenue by approximate pilot group size, again using your example:
UAL: $6,000,000,000 ÷ 13,000 = $461,538.46
K4: $400,000,000 ÷ 800 = $500,000.00
It is also worth noting that there are considerably smaller well-paid pilot groups at corporate flight operations that generate an order of magnitude less revenue than what we're talking about, and they throw the math even further. I had the privilege of flying for one overseas while the US airline industry went through a decade or so of soul-searching. In those deeply unfair times, many of us made more than the widebody captains that flew us back and forth to recurrent Stateside.
There may be plenty of reasons why Kalitta does not have an industry-leading contract, but presenting your logic as though it is a hard and fast rule of business suggests a need to examine the issue further. As others have said, employers pay what they need to. The recent behavior of the company suggests that Contract 2021 is no longer sufficient in their eyes, either.
$400,000,000 of revenue generated by 3,000 employees, on the other hand, is $133,333.33 per head.
But maybe that logic is flawed. Since we are just talking about pilots, let's try dividing revenue by approximate pilot group size, again using your example:
UAL: $6,000,000,000 ÷ 13,000 = $461,538.46
K4: $400,000,000 ÷ 800 = $500,000.00
It is also worth noting that there are considerably smaller well-paid pilot groups at corporate flight operations that generate an order of magnitude less revenue than what we're talking about, and they throw the math even further. I had the privilege of flying for one overseas while the US airline industry went through a decade or so of soul-searching. In those deeply unfair times, many of us made more than the widebody captains that flew us back and forth to recurrent Stateside.
There may be plenty of reasons why Kalitta does not have an industry-leading contract, but presenting your logic as though it is a hard and fast rule of business suggests a need to examine the issue further. As others have said, employers pay what they need to. The recent behavior of the company suggests that Contract 2021 is no longer sufficient in their eyes, either.
Last edited by thepotato232; 10-23-2023 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Context, unnecessarily confrontational wording
10-23-2023 | 04:57 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
Prior to C2016…..I think the 20 yr CA pay scale topped out at $170/hr. Why? Because they could get away with it. They’ll pay you what they have to pay you. But forget pay. LTD, retirement, soft money, etc….. the company will never do it. They could (I’ve seen the CRAF/FAA financial report). But they won’t.
You can have all that….you just gotta milk the cows on the other side of the fence. It’s a crazy time in the industry.
You can have all that….you just gotta milk the cows on the other side of the fence. It’s a crazy time in the industry.
10-23-2023 | 05:58 PM
#44
New Hire
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: A321 - 1C
Prior to C2016…..I think the 20 yr CA pay scale topped out at $170/hr. Why? Because they could get away with it. They’ll pay you what they have to pay you. But forget pay. LTD, retirement, soft money, etc….. the company will never do it. They could (I’ve seen the CRAF/FAA financial report). But they won’t.
You can have all that….you just gotta milk the cows on the other side of the fence. It’s a crazy time in the industry.
You can have all that….you just gotta milk the cows on the other side of the fence. It’s a crazy time in the industry.
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works."
Bruh your straight trippin. I watch you from a far, you saying you dig ditches before you work at any airline. Bruh your talkin bout milkin cows. Only thing you sweatin over is which meal to eat and free pizza when you was around bruh. You got the night sweats for that free lemon loaf at the 5 towns bruh. You need to get a real career where you actually work then people would take you serious. Everyone in your hometown makes fun of you cause you tell them your a pilot with that license plate bruh. YOU BUGGIN DAWG!
10-23-2023 | 06:26 PM
#45
New Hire
Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: A321 - 1C
What comes first
median age of management drops to 78 or you guys get a 777 to fly?
I got 78 with a -60
777 actually flying +785
next time i run into one of you guys on a layover ill buy your way into breakfast for you. With the money i take from this bet line.
median age of management drops to 78 or you guys get a 777 to fly?
I got 78 with a -60
777 actually flying +785
next time i run into one of you guys on a layover ill buy your way into breakfast for you. With the money i take from this bet line.
10-23-2023 | 08:29 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: CA 757/767
[QUOTE=Nomadic;3714439]
It's obvious that you have no understanding how business works. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're taking something personally that really isn't. American Airlines and United Airlines are both Fortune 50 companies worth more than 25 Billion dollars. Each. They generate over 6 billion dollars in revenue a year. They each have around 100,000 employees.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
Lastly, I am HIGHLY suspicious that you'd actually put your money where your mouth is on the digging ditches part. There's a mighty high horse those ditch diggers would gladly chop out from under you if you said that you'd rather do that than fly a 747 or 777 around the world. But if that's the case, die on the hill. It's your time to shine.
I agree with everything you said about working at a 121 flag airline. K4 will never be able to offer the pay, benefits, and lifestyle we all became airline pilots to enjoy. We have become the Kalitta Airline Training Command. We offer pilots with little to no real experience to come and fly a 747 or 777 aircraft. Where else can one obtain this experience? If you think about it, we will never have a problem attracting pilots, but the problem is keeping them. I encourage every low time pilot to apply, get hired, and with the heavy time you gain here, it will turn into a fast track to a major airline.
So having agreed with you, lets talk about this current MEC and their total inept conduct during the last contract. Most people understand this is not a flag carrier, it is a supplemental. What does the S stand for in supplemental, well use your immigration. I believe the issue being addressed here was not moving over to a real airline, it was about replacing the current MEC. So, when you are deciding who to vote for, remember how the last contract passed, who was responsible for putting it forward, and then why it passed. This has already been discussed in previous posts, so it should not be a surprise.
I was shocked to hear from several different crewmembers that we should not change leadership in the middle of negotiations. Let’s be clear, we are NOT in the middle of negotiations, we are just getting started, and the sooner we replace the current group the better. Even if you have already decided to leave Kalitta, be sure you take the time and vote for the individuals that choose to stay.
One more time just to be clear. Kalitta will NEVER be a flag operation, but there can be a significant improvement if you are willing to fight for it.
It's obvious that you have no understanding how business works. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're taking something personally that really isn't. American Airlines and United Airlines are both Fortune 50 companies worth more than 25 Billion dollars. Each. They generate over 6 billion dollars in revenue a year. They each have around 100,000 employees.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
Lastly, I am HIGHLY suspicious that you'd actually put your money where your mouth is on the digging ditches part. There's a mighty high horse those ditch diggers would gladly chop out from under you if you said that you'd rather do that than fly a 747 or 777 around the world. But if that's the case, die on the hill. It's your time to shine.
I agree with everything you said about working at a 121 flag airline. K4 will never be able to offer the pay, benefits, and lifestyle we all became airline pilots to enjoy. We have become the Kalitta Airline Training Command. We offer pilots with little to no real experience to come and fly a 747 or 777 aircraft. Where else can one obtain this experience? If you think about it, we will never have a problem attracting pilots, but the problem is keeping them. I encourage every low time pilot to apply, get hired, and with the heavy time you gain here, it will turn into a fast track to a major airline.
So having agreed with you, lets talk about this current MEC and their total inept conduct during the last contract. Most people understand this is not a flag carrier, it is a supplemental. What does the S stand for in supplemental, well use your immigration. I believe the issue being addressed here was not moving over to a real airline, it was about replacing the current MEC. So, when you are deciding who to vote for, remember how the last contract passed, who was responsible for putting it forward, and then why it passed. This has already been discussed in previous posts, so it should not be a surprise.
I was shocked to hear from several different crewmembers that we should not change leadership in the middle of negotiations. Let’s be clear, we are NOT in the middle of negotiations, we are just getting started, and the sooner we replace the current group the better. Even if you have already decided to leave Kalitta, be sure you take the time and vote for the individuals that choose to stay.
One more time just to be clear. Kalitta will NEVER be a flag operation, but there can be a significant improvement if you are willing to fight for it.
10-24-2023 | 04:02 AM
#49
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Per your example, $6,000,000,000 of revenue generated by 100,000 employees works out to $60,000.00 worth of revenue per employee.
$400,000,000 of revenue generated by 3,000 employees, on the other hand, is $133,333.33 per head.
But maybe that logic is flawed. Since we are just talking about pilots, let's try dividing revenue by approximate pilot group size, again using your example:
UAL: $6,000,000,000 ÷ 13,000 = $461,538.46
K4: $400,000,000 ÷ 800 = $500,000.00
It is also worth noting that there are considerably smaller well-paid pilot groups at corporate flight operations that generate an order of magnitude less revenue than what we're talking about, and they throw the math even further. I had the privilege of flying for one overseas while the US airline industry went through a decade or so of soul-searching. In those deeply unfair times, many of us made more than the widebody captains that flew us back and forth to recurrent Stateside.
There may be plenty of reasons why Kalitta does not have an industry-leading contract, but presenting your logic as though it is a hard and fast rule of business suggests a need to examine the issue further. As others have said, employers pay what they need to. The recent behavior of the company suggests that Contract 2021 is no longer sufficient in their eyes, either.
$400,000,000 of revenue generated by 3,000 employees, on the other hand, is $133,333.33 per head.
But maybe that logic is flawed. Since we are just talking about pilots, let's try dividing revenue by approximate pilot group size, again using your example:
UAL: $6,000,000,000 ÷ 13,000 = $461,538.46
K4: $400,000,000 ÷ 800 = $500,000.00
It is also worth noting that there are considerably smaller well-paid pilot groups at corporate flight operations that generate an order of magnitude less revenue than what we're talking about, and they throw the math even further. I had the privilege of flying for one overseas while the US airline industry went through a decade or so of soul-searching. In those deeply unfair times, many of us made more than the widebody captains that flew us back and forth to recurrent Stateside.
There may be plenty of reasons why Kalitta does not have an industry-leading contract, but presenting your logic as though it is a hard and fast rule of business suggests a need to examine the issue further. As others have said, employers pay what they need to. The recent behavior of the company suggests that Contract 2021 is no longer sufficient in their eyes, either.
Corporate... Not even a fair comparison. There's a reason people are fleeing corporate right now. No training slots, no movement, impending doom in the economy, no job security, no real retirement, no schedule. We can go on and on. Point being that there is no perfect. I'd GLADLY trade in a Gulfstream for a 747 right now. When G600 Captains with 8,000 hours and 10 years of job history flying large cabin airplanes get put on the street, it tends to make everyone nervous.
There is no perfect in this industry. Head over to the Legacy boards in this forum and you'll see that. You gotta get a seat at the table where you can make enough to take care of you and your family and work it into a schedule that works for you and them. That's my .02. Worth what you paid for it.
10-24-2023 | 09:40 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: CA 757/767
Fellow Kalitta Air pilots, as previously stated we are not in the middle of negotiations, we are at the start. Perhaps we can predict the future of these negotiations based on actions by our current leadership team.
As we all know, at K4 the MEC alone agreed with company to increase our retirement contribution to 12% on October 1st. Currently the Atlas Air Pilots are membership ratifying a deal for 16% retirement. Do we see a trend? As the Atlas Air Pilots pursue a path for Industry Standard, our team is focusing on a terrible “Best in Class” strategy….
The time is now to reject this plan for less and demand Industry Standard as our goal.
As we all know, at K4 the MEC alone agreed with company to increase our retirement contribution to 12% on October 1st. Currently the Atlas Air Pilots are membership ratifying a deal for 16% retirement. Do we see a trend? As the Atlas Air Pilots pursue a path for Industry Standard, our team is focusing on a terrible “Best in Class” strategy….
The time is now to reject this plan for less and demand Industry Standard as our goal.
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