Change is in the air
10-21-2023, 07:13 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 833
At the top, K4 is a very well run, profitable company. To that end…the pilot group has only ever gotten what K4 management has needed to give them. That last contract was hardly negotiated…..it was slid across a briefing room table at the training center to our chair as a “last and final offer” from Connie. And it went out. It’s a family business. It is what it is. It’s OK to be OK with that. It’s OK to realize that’s not likely to change…..and head on out. But if you’re gonna stay…..be OK with the status quo no matter the representation.
10-21-2023, 08:02 PM
#32
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 23
[QUOTE=goinaround;3713463]At the top, K4 is a very well run, profitable company. To that end…the pilot group has only ever gotten what K4 management has needed to give them. That last contract was hardly negotiated…..it was slid across a briefing room table at the training center to our chair as a “last and final offer” from Connie. And it went out. It’s a family business. It is what it is. It’s OK to be OK with that. It’s OK to realize that’s not likely to change…..and head on out. But if you’re gonna stay…..be OK with the status quo no matter the representation.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
10-21-2023, 08:18 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 833
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713479]
I felt that way. Then I witnessed the pilot group around me ratify the most insulting TA I’ll hopefully ever see for the rest of my career. When you can’t trust your fellow crew dogs to respect themselves as industry professionals….what else can you do? But I’m sure it’ll be better THIS time………
Originally Posted by goinaround
At the top, K4 is a very well run, profitable company. To that end…the pilot group has only ever gotten what K4 management has needed to give them. That last contract was hardly negotiated…..it was slid across a briefing room table at the training center to our chair as a “last and final offer” from Connie. And it went out. It’s a family business. It is what it is. It’s OK to be OK with that. It’s OK to realize that’s not likely to change…..and head on out. But if you’re gonna stay…..be OK with the status quo no matter the representation.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
10-21-2023, 08:53 PM
#34
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 23
[QUOTE=goinaround;3713483]
I felt that way. Then I witnessed the pilot group around me ratify the most insulting TA I’ll hopefully ever see for the rest of my career. When you can’t trust your fellow crew dogs to respect themselves as industry professionals….what else can you do? But I’m sure it’ll be better THIS time………
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
Originally Posted by hogrider
I felt that way. Then I witnessed the pilot group around me ratify the most insulting TA I’ll hopefully ever see for the rest of my career. When you can’t trust your fellow crew dogs to respect themselves as industry professionals….what else can you do? But I’m sure it’ll be better THIS time………
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
10-21-2023, 09:04 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 833
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713488]
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
Or….like the last guy said. Just hop on over at your major of choice. I hardly feel like I left and I’m already headed to upgrade. Promise I’m not saying this to be a jerk……but there is just so much to be had out there. And it happens FAST if you want it to. Not throwing shade to the K4 folks. Loved working at Kalitta Air. I’ll hang the jersey on my wall when I retire.
Originally Posted by goinaround
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
10-21-2023, 09:47 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: CA 757/767
Posts: 109
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713479]
Actually, it does matter who represents us, we need a strong leader and solid MEC. The current book are the ones to bring this abomination to fruition. Of course, the pilots were the ones to vote it in, but think back to how this happened. This started at the top with a leader in way over his head, and the people that had experience surrounding him, should have been the ones to educate and enlighten him, not move it forward.
Originally Posted by goinaround
At the top, K4 is a very well run, profitable company. To that end…the pilot group has only ever gotten what K4 management has needed to give them. That last contract was hardly negotiated…..it was slid across a briefing room table at the training center to our chair as a “last and final offer” from Connie. And it went out. It’s a family business. It is what it is. It’s OK to be OK with that. It’s OK to realize that’s not likely to change…..and head on out. But if you’re gonna stay…..be OK with the status quo no matter the representation.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
I am sure that is what current management group is highly anticipating. I’m here to tell you that old Machiavellian way of thinking is not going to work this time around. We have 747 wide body captains flying for less than regional pilot wages. We are the face of the union. It doesn’t matter who represents us. Everyday the men and women that make this company profitable need to wake up and ask themselves why they are giving their expertise, their health, their time away from family and personal relationships for pennies on the dollar. Do you think Captain David Bourne with the Thugsters could represent our interests any better? How about good old Captain Dan Wells at Atlas? We are the union. Every pilot needs to get involved. We are not falling for the bs offers slid across the table with take it or leave it attitude. Connie and Pete can watch their Dewey Hoooey and Louie contracts evaporate and they can both be the last ones in the building to turn the lights out.
10-21-2023, 09:52 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: CA 757/767
Posts: 109
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713488]
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
You’re correct, the group only has strength if the pilots are willing to stand up for themselves. Now having said that, any union is only as strong, cohesive and in solidarity, if and only if, we have good leadership. Can anyone really say we have a strong MEC? Up until recently, communication has been sparce at best, but it’s amazing that all of a sudden when there is a real challenger to the current leader, communication has improved.
The reasons I stated previously as to why this contract passed are valid, true, and still apply. If you want change, and would like to see improvements in working conditions, and quality of life, consider voting for a fresh perspective and solid team. Everyone needs to vote for their future, failing to do so is a mistake. Whether you choose to stay here, or move on someplace else, do yourself, your friends, and the profession a solid, vote for new leadership.
Originally Posted by goinaround
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
The reasons I stated previously as to why this contract passed are valid, true, and still apply. If you want change, and would like to see improvements in working conditions, and quality of life, consider voting for a fresh perspective and solid team. Everyone needs to vote for their future, failing to do so is a mistake. Whether you choose to stay here, or move on someplace else, do yourself, your friends, and the profession a solid, vote for new leadership.
10-22-2023, 09:32 AM
#38
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 23
[QUOTE=ex402dvr;3713498][QUOTE=hogrider;3713488]You’re correct, the group only has strength if the pilots are willing to stand up for themselves. Now having said that, any union is only as strong, cohesive and in solidarity, if and only if, we have good leadership. Can anyone really say we have a strong MEC? Up until recently, communication has been sparce at best, but it’s amazing that all of a sudden when there is a real challenger to the current leader, communication has improved.
The reasons I stated previously as to why this contract passed are valid, true, and still apply. If you want change, and would like to see improvements in working conditions, and quality of life, consider voting for a fresh perspective and solid team. Everyone needs to vote for their future, failing to do so is a mistake. Whether you choose to stay here, or move on someplace else, do yourself, your friends, and the profession a solid, vote for new leadership.
^^^^^^^^^^^This 💯 percent!!^^^^^^^^^^
And after a solid mec is installed every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t gonna hand us an industry standard contract. We have to fight for it!
The reasons I stated previously as to why this contract passed are valid, true, and still apply. If you want change, and would like to see improvements in working conditions, and quality of life, consider voting for a fresh perspective and solid team. Everyone needs to vote for their future, failing to do so is a mistake. Whether you choose to stay here, or move on someplace else, do yourself, your friends, and the profession a solid, vote for new leadership.
^^^^^^^^^^^This 💯 percent!!^^^^^^^^^^
And after a solid mec is installed every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t gonna hand us an industry standard contract. We have to fight for it!
10-23-2023, 10:38 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 247
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713488]
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
Then go to AA or UA!!! That's what I'm trying to tell you... You're never going to get paid that at Kalitta, plus the 18% DC, plus LTD, etc etc. So leave.
Negotiations this time around, won't be any different than last time. (by the way the last contract passed with 33 votes, not 17) They're going to offer you the bare minimum they need to, to keep the bare minimum number of pilots they need, and not a dollar more. Certainly not AA or UA 777 rates. That would defeat their purpose. It's in the company's DNA, pay as little as possible to keep the planes moving.
Originally Posted by goinaround
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
Negotiations this time around, won't be any different than last time. (by the way the last contract passed with 33 votes, not 17) They're going to offer you the bare minimum they need to, to keep the bare minimum number of pilots they need, and not a dollar more. Certainly not AA or UA 777 rates. That would defeat their purpose. It's in the company's DNA, pay as little as possible to keep the planes moving.
10-23-2023, 02:00 PM
#40
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 11
[QUOTE=hogrider;3713488]
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
It's obvious that you have no understanding how business works. I'm not trying to insult you, but you're taking something personally that really isn't. American Airlines and United Airlines are both Fortune 50 companies worth more than 25 Billion dollars. Each. They generate over 6 billion dollars in revenue a year. They each have around 100,000 employees.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
Lastly, I am HIGHLY suspicious that you'd actually put your money where your mouth is on the digging ditches part. There's a mighty high horse those ditch diggers would gladly chop out from under you if you said that you'd rather do that than fly a 747 or 777 around the world. But if that's the case, die on the hill. It's your time to shine.
Originally Posted by goinaround
It has to be. Current market conditions make their growth expectations unobtainable. Personally I would rather dig ditches than fly their wide bodies for anything less than AA or UA 777 wages. We have the momentum and the ability. Every pilot needs to get involved. The union isn’t going to hand us anything. The union is a vehicle for us to combine our common interests. I have never seen a pilot group that expects a union to hand them a contract. That’s not how it works.
Kalitta is a family owned business and has a valuation of around 700 million dollars with an annual revenue generation of around 400 million. Kalitta has around 3,000 employees. Simply, if Kalitta paid pilots what AA and UA paid their pilots, Kalitta would be bankrupt, you'd be out of a job, and you would be far more angry about that than not being paid what the pilots at AA and UA make. Kalitta will NEVER be able to pay you what AA and UA pay their pilots. They can't. Ever. Unless, of course, they go public, become an S&P 500 company, and they grow 33 X's their current size. In both employees and revenue. People who don't understand these things are the ones in cockpits constantly griping about what they get paid to their own, and other crew members' detriment.
If you want to get paid what the pilots and UA and AA make, you only have 3 options. That's it. It's not personal. It's dollars and cents. All of this information is available on the internet. It might be a little skewed, say they generate 440 million vs 400, but they're not 33 X skewed.
Lastly, I am HIGHLY suspicious that you'd actually put your money where your mouth is on the digging ditches part. There's a mighty high horse those ditch diggers would gladly chop out from under you if you said that you'd rather do that than fly a 747 or 777 around the world. But if that's the case, die on the hill. It's your time to shine.
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