Kalitta Air now accepting FO applications
04-21-2017, 10:11 AM
#2911
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 432
Other than logging to make sure you stay legal.. is it really necessary to even keep a logbook?
If you went to an interview at UPS or FedEx 5 years from now, are they really going to go over the details of a flight on 4/21/17 from Chicago to Hong Kong and how you logged it?
Or would they just say "he's been flying 747s for 5 years, I think he's qualified, time-wise."
If you went to an interview at UPS or FedEx 5 years from now, are they really going to go over the details of a flight on 4/21/17 from Chicago to Hong Kong and how you logged it?
Or would they just say "he's been flying 747s for 5 years, I think he's qualified, time-wise."
04-21-2017, 10:36 AM
#2912
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 80
About once a year I request to have the company send me the hours that they have on me. It would probably be more truthful (from an interviewers standpoint) than what's written in a logbook. I do back it up to make sure they match pretty close though.
04-21-2017, 02:34 PM
#2913
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by 742Dash
There is often a tangle of FARs, company policy and individual Fed opinion. Not to mention the twisted mess that often comes out of that thing called "ground school".
In my experience the quickest way to cut the knot is to ask what FAR would be cited in the violation. Because at the end of the day that is all the FAA can violate someone on; a specific FAR. Granted that the route to that might run through an "approved program" (carry-on baggage or exit row seating, for examples), but at the end there has to be specific FAR.
I do not see anything that a Fed could point too if a -400 pilot opted to spend 9 hours in the seat on a 12 hour flight. And then of course you have the issue of the 17 hour positioning flight from JFK to HKG. After all 121 Subpart R is what it has always been, and there is nothing in there that would differentiate between a Classic and a -400.
In my experience the quickest way to cut the knot is to ask what FAR would be cited in the violation. Because at the end of the day that is all the FAA can violate someone on; a specific FAR. Granted that the route to that might run through an "approved program" (carry-on baggage or exit row seating, for examples), but at the end there has to be specific FAR.
I do not see anything that a Fed could point too if a -400 pilot opted to spend 9 hours in the seat on a 12 hour flight. And then of course you have the issue of the 17 hour positioning flight from JFK to HKG. After all 121 Subpart R is what it has always been, and there is nothing in there that would differentiate between a Classic and a -400.
04-21-2017, 03:06 PM
#2914
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by orka
Just call in sick on your first day and your hard line will revert to a reserve line
04-21-2017, 03:14 PM
#2915
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 41
I always enjoy the logging of time, and 8 hours in the seat debates.
There is no FAR that dictates a pilot cannot be in the seat for more than 8 hours.
FAR 121.507 says: "No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot -
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
121.509:
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
Many pilots misinterpret the fact that since the company can't schedule them to do it, to mean they cannot be in the seat for more than 8 hours.
What would you do if the 3rd pilot gets intestinal distress and cannot relieve to two pilots? Divert and land in order to not exceed 8? You can't legally intentionally violate an FAR unless declaring an emergency. Is a pilot stuck in the lav forcing you to exceed 8 an emergency?
IOE students can't be in the seat for more than 8 because an instructor can't teach more than 8.
I don't believe there has ever been a legal interpretation that interprets it to mean a pilot can't be in the seat for more than 8. Since the FAR's don't specifically prohibit it (they only prohibit the certificate holder from scheduling it) it would require a law judge to rule on it with a legal interpretation for it to be illegal.
The other issue is pilots remember the rules of tracking 66% for augmented, and 50% for double for their consolidation time and interpret this as how to log it in their logbooks. Remember consolidation is to show experience in the airplane for training purposes. They don't want time in the back to count. Has nothing to do with logging in a personal logbook.
I log everything because I don't trust our scheduling department to keep me legal with their antiquated ways of doing things in the office.
Just my opinion.
There is no FAR that dictates a pilot cannot be in the seat for more than 8 hours.
FAR 121.507 says: "No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot -
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
121.509:
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of four pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
Many pilots misinterpret the fact that since the company can't schedule them to do it, to mean they cannot be in the seat for more than 8 hours.
What would you do if the 3rd pilot gets intestinal distress and cannot relieve to two pilots? Divert and land in order to not exceed 8? You can't legally intentionally violate an FAR unless declaring an emergency. Is a pilot stuck in the lav forcing you to exceed 8 an emergency?
IOE students can't be in the seat for more than 8 because an instructor can't teach more than 8.
I don't believe there has ever been a legal interpretation that interprets it to mean a pilot can't be in the seat for more than 8. Since the FAR's don't specifically prohibit it (they only prohibit the certificate holder from scheduling it) it would require a law judge to rule on it with a legal interpretation for it to be illegal.
The other issue is pilots remember the rules of tracking 66% for augmented, and 50% for double for their consolidation time and interpret this as how to log it in their logbooks. Remember consolidation is to show experience in the airplane for training purposes. They don't want time in the back to count. Has nothing to do with logging in a personal logbook.
I log everything because I don't trust our scheduling department to keep me legal with their antiquated ways of doing things in the office.
Just my opinion.
04-21-2017, 03:31 PM
#2916
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 41
My other opinion is that while we got better rates in this contract it leaves a whole lot to be desired.
I believe the concept of keeping us on our lines and layover days having no credit is a huge loss for us. I believe the last email about Asiana lines having a 70 hour guarantee and lines will be built at a later date is a very bad indicator that there will be layover days included in them.
It makes absolutely no sense that reserve would go senior. Shows things are always upside down here.
Wish we were getting information on this from our union reps. Been very quiet out here.
Again, just my opinion.
I believe the concept of keeping us on our lines and layover days having no credit is a huge loss for us. I believe the last email about Asiana lines having a 70 hour guarantee and lines will be built at a later date is a very bad indicator that there will be layover days included in them.
It makes absolutely no sense that reserve would go senior. Shows things are always upside down here.
Wish we were getting information on this from our union reps. Been very quiet out here.
Again, just my opinion.
04-21-2017, 06:54 PM
#2917
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by HercDriver130
I thought this to be true... but in speaking with the Asst Mgr of scheduling was told this is no longer true.... ymmv
04-21-2017, 10:46 PM
#2918
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by orka
Not disagreeing Herc, but seems to me there was a strong status quo precedent .
Herc is correct. I am flying with two crew who were sick and then sked caught them up on their line. It didn't revert to RES like in the old days.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
04-21-2017, 11:18 PM
#2919
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by Mr Rumbold
Other than logging to make sure you stay legal.. is it really necessary to even keep a logbook?
If you went to an interview at UPS or FedEx 5 years from now, are they really going to go over the details of a flight on 4/21/17 from Chicago to Hong Kong and how you logged it?
Or would they just say "he's been flying 747s for 5 years, I think he's qualified, time-wise."
If you went to an interview at UPS or FedEx 5 years from now, are they really going to go over the details of a flight on 4/21/17 from Chicago to Hong Kong and how you logged it?
Or would they just say "he's been flying 747s for 5 years, I think he's qualified, time-wise."
With how stupid and idiotic legacy interviews have got, I just want to make sure I log it the right way so I don't have to explain myself out of a corner during a 2 day interview.
04-22-2017, 01:39 AM
#2920
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Doing Just Fine
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by orka
Just call in sick on your first day and your hard line will revert to a reserve line
One of the few good things in the new contract.
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