Don't Follow Your Passion
02-27-2015, 09:19 PM
#111
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Six figures past middle age is very nice and no one would complain however to receive it so late in the game is not as advantageous as earning an average wage with less debt starting younger in life. The government is only going to take it in taxes anyway.
You've long been on about not living like a king. Your words. In this thread you've used unrealistic, wild salary numbers as the bare minimum for living (despite the fact that the majority of citizens today make a third of your figures), and now you say it's best to earn an "average" wage.
This is among many reasons why you have no credibility.
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
To what end does it profit one to spend a small fortune on training and education plus a decade or more beyond college to finally secure a position at a legacy airline that most likely starts at around half a mailman's wage? Airline pilots used to be very wealthy. They were richer than surgeons and orthodontists. They owned the biggest ranches in town, paid for several families at once, and owned fancy airplanes. They were able to accomplish those things largely because they did not have as much school debt and were hired by a well paying legacy while still in their mid 20's.
Airline pilots at a legacy start at half of a mailman's wage, you say? Let's see.
Postal Pay Scales | 2015 Postal Pay Scales | Executive and Administrative (EAS) Pay.
Mailman Starts at 23,000.
United Airlines | AirlinePilotCentral.com
UAL First Officer starts at 55,000.
You stated that the postal worker makes twice as much as the airline pilot, but in fact the airline pilot makes twice what the postal worker makes. Do you do this to be contrary, because you love a lie, or are you simply this ignorant of the truth?
You have no credibility.
The second year, the postal worker makes 24,000.
Second year UAL F/O pay, starts at 82,000...a little more than three times the postal worker.
To what end does it profit to seek a career in flight training? If one doesn't choose to quit as you did, then it's financially lucrative, offers some enviable schedule, travel benefits, a rewarding career, and for most of us who fly because it's what we chose to do and what we enjoy doing, the career is its own reward over and above the excellent living that we are able to enjoy.
How's that living like a king working out for you?
You claim to have put 20 years into your aviation career and you've been gone from the industry for a while. 25 year captain wages at UAL are 214,000. How's that shake out against your own living at the moment? Are you making that? If not, then it seems incongruous that you'd tell others not to pursue aviation. Your own status is beneath what one could be making if they stuck with aviation. This is your opportunity cost, or in other words, the price of quitting.
You quit, didn't you?
02-28-2015, 10:07 AM
#113
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
opportunity cost
Opportunity cost is a REAL problem in this career. I ran some numbers to show the point.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
03-02-2015, 04:30 AM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Captian, G450, G550 (Ret.)
Posts: 165
hmmm...someone took the Suze Orman course 
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Opportunity cost is a REAL problem in this career. I ran some numbers to show the point.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
03-02-2015, 07:35 AM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,943
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Opportunity cost is a REAL problem in this career. I ran some numbers to show the point.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
1. Assume a typical interest rate of 7% on IRA contributions.
2. Assume another person, not a pilot, enters the regional workforce at age 25 after graduating college and works their whole life making regular IRA contributions ($4k a year). That's worker A.
3. Assume a new regional airline pilot enters the airline work force at age 25, but makes crap money at their regional the first 5 years of their career and waits until age 30 to start retirement planning. That's worker B. He or she delays making contributions to their IRA account because they are broke the first 5 years. We all know that's a realistic scenario, if not worse.
4. Worker C really has a hard time at the regionals and works for say Great Lakes, or any of several other bottom feeders and does not start making any IRA contributions until they are age 35. That's worker C.
Here's the difference in lifetime earnings.
Worker A retires with $1.2M in their IRA.
Worker B who started at age 30, makes $.86M.
Worker C who starts at age 35 makes only $600,000.
Between workers A and C there is a half million dollar opportunity cost from when they started making contributions to their IRA accounts.
The argument can be made that a successful pilot starts late in the retirement game but goes on to a higher salary in middle age, then makes larger IRA contributions when the money starts rolling in flying for a major. I assumed they can make twice the contributions per year ($12k) and ran the numbers (see PILOT below). You can draw your own conclusion about how much of an argument that really is.
In fact even in the 2007 timeframe, arguably one of the worst times to enter the regionals in recent memory, I know of people who started at one, made a lateral move after a year or two (furlough or by choice) and went to another where they upgraded in two years as things got better, and were a lineholding captain at age 27/28, thus making at least $70-80K and just under $100K at age 30.
Regardless of student debt, you can always find money to put into retirement savings if you're making that at that age.
That is the scenario from some people six years ago.
Today I think if someone plays their cards right you could have a very good chance of being captain at a fee-for-departure carrier two years after starting. So, if someone finished college at 22 and did three full years of CFIing or other usually-lower-paying-flying-jobs, they'd still upgrade at age 27 in this example.
Then, they may very well be putting away significantly more money than "Citizen A" and "Citizen B" in the chart above.
Wouldn't be out of the question for a pilot to hit age 30 with well over $100,000 in retirement savings.
Just food for thought.
03-02-2015, 09:14 AM
#117
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Opportunity cost is a REAL problem in this career. I ran some numbers to show the point.
There's more to life and happiness than an IRA.
.
03-02-2015, 01:23 PM
#118
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by contrails
This is a great discussion of finances and I like the chart, but right now the pilot column is not likely to be as you've posted for people getting in.
In fact even in the 2007 timeframe, arguably one of the worst times to enter the regionals in recent memory, I know of people who started at one, made a lateral move after a year or two (furlough or by choice) and went to another where they upgraded in two years as things got better, and were a lineholding captain at age 27/28, thus making at least $70-80K and just under $100K at age 30.
Regardless of student debt, you can always find money to put into retirement savings if you're making that at that age.
That is the scenario from some people six years ago.
Today I think if someone plays their cards right you could have a very good chance of being captain at a fee-for-departure carrier two years after starting. So, if someone finished college at 22 and did three full years of CFIing or other usually-lower-paying-flying-jobs, they'd still upgrade at age 27 in this example.
Then, they may very well be putting away significantly more money than "Citizen A" and "Citizen B" in the chart above.
Wouldn't be out of the question for a pilot to hit age 30 with well over $100,000 in retirement savings.
Just food for thought.
In fact even in the 2007 timeframe, arguably one of the worst times to enter the regionals in recent memory, I know of people who started at one, made a lateral move after a year or two (furlough or by choice) and went to another where they upgraded in two years as things got better, and were a lineholding captain at age 27/28, thus making at least $70-80K and just under $100K at age 30.
Regardless of student debt, you can always find money to put into retirement savings if you're making that at that age.
That is the scenario from some people six years ago.
Today I think if someone plays their cards right you could have a very good chance of being captain at a fee-for-departure carrier two years after starting. So, if someone finished college at 22 and did three full years of CFIing or other usually-lower-paying-flying-jobs, they'd still upgrade at age 27 in this example.
Then, they may very well be putting away significantly more money than "Citizen A" and "Citizen B" in the chart above.
Wouldn't be out of the question for a pilot to hit age 30 with well over $100,000 in retirement savings.
Just food for thought.
Originally Posted by TonyC
...There's more to life and happiness than an IRA...
.
.
03-02-2015, 02:53 PM
#119
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
There's more to life than being a pilot too. I just want those who decide they really want it to know what they are getting into.
I wonder how many kids have grown up dreaming, "When I grow up, I want to have a large IRA!"
.
03-03-2015, 07:15 AM
#120
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Aviation is a worse prospect that most
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
I am saying that it is silly that your are trying to convince people that aviation is inherently a bad industry. Lots of jobs were better in the 70s and 80s than they are now.
The city of Seattle is looking for police officers. Starting pay in training is $62,000 and only goes uphill from there. The railroad is hiring.
Skyhigh
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