Originally Posted by Jdub2

For those of us at the pinnacle of the profession, we are indeed only here because of retirements. There is very little growth to be had because we are mature— we are the market. Unlike a series of upstarts and plucky little 134.5 operators we can’t grow by 50% by buying three planes. There is no way of determining upgrade eligibility “by merit” at an institution of this scale.

Originally Posted by Jdub2

Just remember that everyone can teach you something.

Originally Posted by JohnBurke

How perfectly god damn arrogant of you, but not unexpected. The condescension wreaks.

I get it. You don't just wear a uniform: you are a uniform. Very well. Plucky 134.5...that's cute. Did you think it up all by yourself? Exhausting?

You are not the market. You may think you're at the pinnacle of your career, and perhaps insofar as your limited experience goes, you are. But that's your career: you're at the last job you'll ever work: you've reached the end of the trail. Did you have much experience getting there? Or just a few jobs and you know the industry. You are not at the pinnacle of aviation, or the top of the heap: you are at the top of your heap, and your heap is not the same as the others. Each is different in culture and makeup. Upgrade times at SWA are not the same as upgrade times at American. If you happened to be at Alaska and had a plan before Virgin came on board, the battle plan didn't survive first contact and given the phasing of the airbus and consolidation again, it's changing once more.

Airlines are not aviation. They are a part of aviation, and perhaps you've only been part way around the block, or perhaps not, but you don't sound like you've experienced a merger in your life time, or a furlough, or a downsizing, or a new fleet, or the end of an old fleet, or a strike. You don't sound like you're familiar with the fact that the number of upgrades in a given year do not equal the number of retirements, especially over an extended time of years, rather than a year. What you think the future holds based on projected retirements will not turn out exactly as you project. This is not a static industry. In a large organization of 14,000 to 16,000 pilots, a few hundred extending two years beyond 65 won't make much difference at all, and own't make any difference to those considering becoming pilots.

Pinnacle of the profession...you really are enamored with yourself. Wow. The airline stink looms large with this one.



Well, not you.

Originally Posted by JohnBurke

How perfectly god damn arrogant of you, but not unexpected. The condescension wreaks.

I get it. You don't just wear a uniform: you are a uniform. Very well. Plucky 134.5...that's cute. Did you think it up all by yourself? Exhausting?

You are not the market. You may think you're at the pinnacle of your career, and perhaps insofar as your limited experience goes, you are. But that's your career: you're at the last job you'll ever work: you've reached the end of the trail. Did you have much experience getting there? Or just a few jobs and you know the industry. You are not at the pinnacle of aviation, or the top of the heap: you are at the top of your heap, and your heap is not the same as the others. Each is different in culture and makeup. Upgrade times at SWA are not the same as upgrade times at American. If you happened to be at Alaska and had a plan before Virgin came on board, the battle plan didn't survive first contact and given the phasing of the airbus and consolidation again, it's changing once more.

Airlines are not aviation. They are a part of aviation, and perhaps you've only been part way around the block, or perhaps not, but you don't sound like you've experienced a merger in your life time, or a furlough, or a downsizing, or a new fleet, or the end of an old fleet, or a strike. You don't sound like you're familiar with the fact that the number of upgrades in a given year do not equal the number of retirements, especially over an extended time of years, rather than a year. What you think the future holds based on projected retirements will not turn out exactly as you project. This is not a static industry. In a large organization of 14,000 to 16,000 pilots, a few hundred extending two years beyond 65 won't make much difference at all, and own't make any difference to those considering becoming pilots.

Pinnacle of the profession...you really are enamored with yourself. Wow. The airline stink looms large with this one.



Well, not you.

Originally Posted by OOfff

I’m really glad you agree that age 67 won’t make a difference at all. There’s no reason to change the age limit

Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER

Reading comprehension skills just not that sharp, kid?

That's not at all what he said.

Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER

So some people think that after working under the current seniority system for 34 years, including going back to the bottom of the list three times, I should allow the unions reverse the benefits I have earned over the life of my career? YGBSM

It's bad enough that the unions that I have contributed tens of thousands of dollars to over the course of my lifetime are actively lobbying congress to eliminate my employment in direct contradiction to their own bylaws.

Originally Posted by JohnBurke

I've worked under multiple systems that did, and did not use seniority. In no case did I depend on an old man getting out of my way, to upgrade.

...
.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies

TL;DR

If you worked for a seniority based airline that'd been around for more than a handful of years I've got news for you, you benefited from pilots hitting mandatory retirement age. It doesn't matter what kind of mental gymnastics you want to engage in to pretend like you did not, it doesn't make it true.

Originally Posted by Zoomie

So, for age 67 promoters and FTUD(fly till you die) promoters, I offer this recommendation:
We need to de-leverage seniority is done here at the airlines. I don't suggest abandoning seniority, just stopping the carveout for the super senior.

Delta has started de-leveraging seniority by doing a couple things:
1) booking of jumpseats by first come first serve, (I think AA does this to).
2) Green slips based upon senior gets first shot at premium, then a more Jr pilot gets a stab before the senior takes another helping at the trough.

Consider this:
I propose we bid for vacation in a round robin type system. 1 week vacation for the most senior, then down the list. Each round only gets one week of vacation before a jr pilot gets a shot. No more senior guy gets 3 weeks of vacation over the summer before the Jr get nothing.
I propose we bid for golden days off for vacations (the senior will still get everything they want), but those that are less senior will have to pick which vacations they want without getting them all off.
- A Jr pilot still will most likely not get Christmas/Thanksgiving/4th of July, but maybe they get Easter Weekend, or MLK weekend, or President's day weekend, Juneteenth, or Halloween
I also think that Jr guys should be able to bid for 2-3 days off a month based on their seniority before PBS starts building. Make PBS build us schedules around those days. Not everyone gets the same weekend off, but I still think that it's not too much to ask for a Jr lineholder to get one weekend off a month. Or if they choose to bid off their kids birthday, or valentine's day, or anniversary, we deserve that.

This isn't a senior vs junior argument. It's an argument for going back to being real unions. Right now most airlines basically carve out everything for the super senior. This happened during bankruptcy and with the advent of PBS type systems (don't give up your system without PBS SWAPA).

Under old ways of scheduling (Preconstructed lines) senior pilots had to make a choice: more days off, holiday off, more pay, better layovers, etc.

Right now with the way most PBS systems are designed, the senior take their turn at the trough before a Jr guy even gets a bite.
Why should the top 5% in seniority get day turn trips and someone at 10% can't touch one. Is it reasonable to expect everyone will ever be able to get a schedule like this?

Top 10% on the widebody gets all the super effecient trips and a guy at 50% can't even touch that city-pair till they are close to 10%?

Top seniority guy only knows how to fly to 1 or 2 city pairs on the WB. Sounds like a carve out.

Well, since now we will all most likely breath our last up at 40,000 ft, we need to rethink the design of our PBS systems and seniority heavy system.

No one is recommending that we remove seniority, it is necessary. I am merely suggesting there are ways to allow a more consistent QOL throughout your career.

That pilot that was hired at 23 will most likely be here till they are 80, think it's a real union based system that allows them to constantly get everything they want while you get nothing?

Bring on the comments. Flame on...