Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-16-2007, 08:45 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
MikeB525's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 584
Default Question for Controllers and NYC pilots

Hi all,

Ok, so today I completed my provate glider checkride at Somerset airport (KSMQ) in New Jersey. I need to ask some air traffic controllers and NYC area airline pilots about the airspace and routing of jetliners through the area of Solberg (SBJ) VOR.

KSMQ and SBJ are outside the NY Class B. About 5 miles east starts the Class B, 3000 to 7000. We know SBJ is an waypoint on the approach sequence for aircraft arriving from the south and west, and aircraft making the westbound turn after departing EWR frequently come near.

But we've noticed jetliners coming very low over the area of SBJ, sometimes as little as 3000 going into EWR. Does anybody know why jetliners are being vectored so low outside the Class B? Hows does ATC decide how low to bring the aircraft, and how fast to fly them? I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.

Can anyone offer any insight? In general, for you pilots that are EWR/LGA/JFK based, or operate at those airports very frequently, please be aware of glider ops 5000 and below INVOF SBJ on weekends and occasionaly weekday evenings.

Thanks guys. We're constantly looking for you while we're thermalling. Fly safe.
MikeB525 is offline  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:06 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Slice's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeB525 View Post
Hi all,

Ok, so today I completed my provate glider checkride at Somerset airport (KSMQ) in New Jersey. I need to ask some air traffic controllers and NYC area airline pilots about the airspace and routing of jetliners through the area of Solberg (SBJ) VOR.

KSMQ and SBJ are outside the NY Class B. About 5 miles east starts the Class B, 3000 to 7000. We know SBJ is an waypoint on the approach sequence for aircraft arriving from the south and west, and aircraft making the westbound turn after departing EWR frequently come near.

But we've noticed jetliners coming very low over the area of SBJ, sometimes as little as 3000 going into EWR. Does anybody know why jetliners are being vectored so low outside the Class B? Hows does ATC decide how low to bring the aircraft, and how fast to fly them? I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.

Can anyone offer any insight? In general, for you pilots that are EWR/LGA/JFK based, or operate at those airports very frequently, please be aware of glider ops 5000 and below INVOF SBJ on weekends and occasionaly weekday evenings.

Thanks guys. We're constantly looking for you while we're thermalling. Fly safe.
It can be busy in the terminal area and both pilots won't have time constantly look outside the entire time. While a glider technically has the right of way, physics and the 'rule of tonnage' apply. You'll probably lose the battle between a Schweitzer and a 737 or RJ. A transponder would help thru TCAS...but I understand it's unlikely.
Slice is offline  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:17 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Bloodhound's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: XJT CA
Posts: 522
Default

I'm going to guess that ATC have a/c at those altitudes purely out of necessity. That whole area is a hornet's nest and they need any and all airspace. If an aircraft is there, it's probably because there is another aircraft at the more-desirable altitudes. As you probably know, it's not just the "big 3" in that area. There's TEB, ISP, Stewart, and all the other smaller airports so there are a/c everywhere. I don't have a lot of experience to LGA or JFK but tons is EWR and SBJ is only used as a departure fix out of EWR.

As for speeds, 250 is the norm on the departures and anything from 180-250 on the arrivals. Usually, the departures are 250 because ATC wants you out of their hair. Sometimes it's a little slower but that based on the a/c in front and required spacing. The arrival speeds is dictated by volume and required spacing.

Last edited by Bloodhound; 09-16-2007 at 09:23 PM.
Bloodhound is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 07:52 AM   #4  
On Reserve
 
flyosu's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 15
Default

Quote:
I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.
No good pilot, let alone a captain at a 121 carrier on a turbojet aircraft, should allow both pilots to be heads down at 3000 feet.
flyosu is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 08:00 AM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RonnyK320's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: A319, A320, A321
Posts: 429
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyosu View Post
No good pilot, let alone a captain at a 121 carrier on a turbojet aircraft, should allow both pilots to be heads down at 3000 feet.

You obviously don't fly a turbojet at 121 carrier...
RonnyK320 is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:07 AM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
SabreDriver's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: The Right One
Posts: 485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnyK320 View Post
You obviously don't fly a turbojet at 121 carrier...

What part of 121 operations relieves the pilot of maintaining proper lookout doctrine? 121.what? If our procedures have us so busy that we cannot maintain an effective lookout, then we need to change our procedures. While operating in VMC conditions, there is absolutely no substitute for a good VFR scan, and the diligent practice of "see and avoid" along with suppressing the the "big sky, little airplane" theory in the cockpit.

There also is a pretty good chance that those glider ops are notam'd. On my last flight into JFK, there were over 31 pages of those darn notam things, so I might have missed one.

I don't personally fly gliders, but I think if I did, I darn sure wouldn't do it in the area of the TEB/EWR/JFK etc... without a transponder, just not a good example of risk management. You might be in the right to do it, dead right too.


SD out.
SabreDriver is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:42 AM   #7  
On Reserve
 
Killship's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 7576 CA
Posts: 23
Default

If you are talking about Sewark, I don't think we go as low as 3000' around the Solberg area, we usually get 3000' just prior to intercepting the localizer, either for 04R or 22L (unless the controllers dump you at 2500' after passing TEB for 22L). BTW about 2 years ago we almost ran into a glider coming in around Crank/SAX, we missed him by about 2-300 feet as he dove out of our way. He would have lost as we were in a 767-400. I better not complain though as I fly sailplanes on my few off days...
Killship is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 12:01 PM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
FliFast's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,781
Default

Good post Sabre,

Even though we preach see and avoid, inevitably and unfortunately it happens that both pilots will be heads-down in the terminal area. To think it doesn't happen is not realistic.

Maybe what we can take away from this thread is that we raise our awareness of this "gotcha" and when the stuff hits the fan and both of you want to take a whack at the magic box, someone will say "waittttta a minute"...who is minding the store and why are we both heads down".

Safe travels,

FF
FliFast is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 12:06 PM   #9  
Line Holder
 
SenecaDriver's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 52
Default Look out the window!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice View Post
It can be busy in the terminal area and both pilots won't have time constantly look outside the entire time. While a glider technically has the right of way, physics and the 'rule of tonnage' apply. You'll probably lose the battle between a Schweitzer and a 737 or RJ. A transponder would help thru TCAS...but I understand it's unlikely.
Don't think the 'rule of tonnage' was any help to the PSA 727 crew over San Diego back in 78. Or the recent NetJet crew for that matter. Somebody needs to be looking out the window. Busy or not.

Ok back on Topic...

Any of you guys/controlers who operate in/around the NY 3 see the Bravo changing shape or getting larger. Seems that most Class B's out west have extensions on them and extend up to 10K MSL? I saw something recently in Aviation week that would sugest changes are coming.
SenecaDriver is offline  
Old 09-17-2007, 01:25 PM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Ottopilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,537
Default

I'm surprised no one has said this:

"Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which Class B airspace area is designed must operate at or above the designated floors of the class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area."

"Large turbine powered aircraft operating to and from a primary airport are prohibited from operating below the floor of any portion of class B airspace, unless specifically authorized by ATC. A visual approach does not consititue authorization to operate below the floor of class B airspace."


I've been flying out of Newark for over 10 years. I've never been near SBJ at 3000'- I'm always higher. I've never been "authorized by ATC to operate below the class B airspace." I've never seen glider NOTAMS. There are many glider airports and that means gliders- don't need a NOTAM for fly a glider. The Shaff arrival or V213 has many gliders. Just north of the Williamsport arrival and PENNS intersection has lots of gliders. And, of course, down by SBJ there are gliders. They have glider symbols on the sectional charts. Airline pilots don't have this info. See and avoid is the responsibilty of all pilots, but use common sense too. Don't fly on busy airline arrivals in or out of class B airspace. It's like a pedestrian crossing a busy intersection without the crosswalk green light.

There are also high power rocket launches on V213 near Shaff that fly on the first or second weekends of the month. They fly big rockets up to 12,000' and can reach speeds exceeding Mach 1-2. They are NOTAMed, but the airlines do not get these NOTAMS. Why? I don't know. Airliners pass this area at about 7,000' for Newark. Rocket flights over 5,000' are called into Boston Center for clearance. Plus, they look up before they launch the rocket. see http://www.metrarocketclub.org/
Ottopilot is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reserve in NYC Split S Major 3 07-29-2007 05:33 PM
NWA Council 20 on 1113c Negotiations LDmax Major 0 01-28-2006 01:57 PM
DAL hearing zingers Freighter Captain Major 6 11-29-2005 09:17 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:02 PM.