Jet Blue Pay Raise
06-28-2008, 02:38 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by greedyairlineexec
I don't think pointing out the facts makes my post miserable. I say it again: it is not about pay, but about protecting a career and protecting your fellow pilots form financial disaster when life throws them a curb ball. if caring for other jet blue pilots future and their families makes me miserable in your eyes then I will take it a a compliment.maybe you should be as "miserable" as I am and show some of the caring value we are so lacking nowadays.
remember the values this company was founded upon and try to find them being applied without the spin. for me the most important one was caring, but is slowly dying.this lates round of not dealing with the real issues only reinforces it.please start caring for others, it really is not all about you believe it or not.
remember the values this company was founded upon and try to find them being applied without the spin. for me the most important one was caring, but is slowly dying.this lates round of not dealing with the real issues only reinforces it.please start caring for others, it really is not all about you believe it or not.
06-28-2008, 02:53 PM
#32
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Clear Right
Here is my 2 cents, flame away: Just like any other airline JetBlue has three distinct pilot groups, Senior, Mid-Seniority, and Junior, so here we go.
Senior Captains - No Raise, I know it sucks and in effect they actually got a pay cut because productivity is going down and inflation. But let's face the facts our Senior Captains at JetBlue do as good or better than every Narrow Body domestic carrier out there. (With a few exceptions Southwest, American, etc.) They are also the only group who SHOULD have benefitted from very lucrative stock options. So bottom line, they are competative or better than their peer group at other carriers.
Mid-Seniority - (Junior Captains and Senior F/O's) You just got a 5 to 10% pay raise in one of the worst downsides of the Airline Industry. You are now competative against your peer groups, (again Southwest/American are the exception). If you are an E-190 Captain you are now the highest paid Small-Narrow Body pilot in the industry. You just set the new standard for the airline industry on the E-190. Hopefully it will continue to rise but it is at least a start to an Industry Leading example of redifining the aircraft category.
Junior Pilots - If you are a first year pilot you are grandfathered in at current pay. Future new hires will be under the new pay ($40.00). Ask a CAL pilot what their first year pay is??? Every other junior E-190 pilot just got a pay raise. Now hopefully you had no dillutions about what you were getting into when you got hired as a E-190 F/O. Growth is at a stand still, most new hires were treating it as a Transitional Job waiting for the big fish to call, but now they are stuck, because of the industry state. Sucks to be Junior, at least you got a raise and if you left a Regional Left Seat I am sorry. Over time things should improve, but remember it is a new category aircraft that some will still argue is a Regional Jet. The Junior pilots are the worst off, but some would argue that the rest of the industry is Furloughing and JetBlue has a shared sacrifice gameplan, I know 43 year old United pilots that are going to be on the street, most of you are in your late 20's or early 30's and you still have a job.
JetBlue has a long way to go on other issues LOL, Medical, Retirement, but this is a good effort by management. I know a CBA is the only way to get certain protections, so I am not ruling out a good JBPA push. Bottom line, stay informed, stay educated and keep an open mind from all sides and all arguments and make a good decision.
Flame Away
Senior Captains - No Raise, I know it sucks and in effect they actually got a pay cut because productivity is going down and inflation. But let's face the facts our Senior Captains at JetBlue do as good or better than every Narrow Body domestic carrier out there. (With a few exceptions Southwest, American, etc.) They are also the only group who SHOULD have benefitted from very lucrative stock options. So bottom line, they are competative or better than their peer group at other carriers.
Mid-Seniority - (Junior Captains and Senior F/O's) You just got a 5 to 10% pay raise in one of the worst downsides of the Airline Industry. You are now competative against your peer groups, (again Southwest/American are the exception). If you are an E-190 Captain you are now the highest paid Small-Narrow Body pilot in the industry. You just set the new standard for the airline industry on the E-190. Hopefully it will continue to rise but it is at least a start to an Industry Leading example of redifining the aircraft category.
Junior Pilots - If you are a first year pilot you are grandfathered in at current pay. Future new hires will be under the new pay ($40.00). Ask a CAL pilot what their first year pay is??? Every other junior E-190 pilot just got a pay raise. Now hopefully you had no dillutions about what you were getting into when you got hired as a E-190 F/O. Growth is at a stand still, most new hires were treating it as a Transitional Job waiting for the big fish to call, but now they are stuck, because of the industry state. Sucks to be Junior, at least you got a raise and if you left a Regional Left Seat I am sorry. Over time things should improve, but remember it is a new category aircraft that some will still argue is a Regional Jet. The Junior pilots are the worst off, but some would argue that the rest of the industry is Furloughing and JetBlue has a shared sacrifice gameplan, I know 43 year old United pilots that are going to be on the street, most of you are in your late 20's or early 30's and you still have a job.
JetBlue has a long way to go on other issues LOL, Medical, Retirement, but this is a good effort by management. I know a CBA is the only way to get certain protections, so I am not ruling out a good JBPA push. Bottom line, stay informed, stay educated and keep an open mind from all sides and all arguments and make a good decision.
Flame Away
You post is inaccurate on so many counts. No, the senior are not in the middle of their peer group at other carriers, they continue to be at the bottom. Don't be confused by the "blended rate" argument. F/O pay in most instances did not achieve parity with most other carriers. The yearly "pay increase" for most of 2%do not meet inflation, in essence, you are getting a paycut every year.
I can only guess, that you did not read the PCRB report, or if you did, that you didn't grasp the information gathered. Further, I must assume, that you believed the company provided information, where JR said, that we were now in the middle of the pack.
Hey, I am happy you are glad and thrilled to be part of it all, but perhaps you should do a bit of research before you start spouting company propaganda.
Respectfully,
D8
Last edited by Dizel8; 06-28-2008 at 02:59 PM.
06-28-2008, 03:05 PM
#33
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Captain part 135
Posts: 88
If I remember correctly B6 starting pay was $51.00hr, then $47 now $40.
-Take money from the juniors and give it to the seniors, now that’s the true aviation organized labor mentality. Sure you guys aren’t unionized already?
-Take money from the juniors and give it to the seniors, now that’s the true aviation organized labor mentality. Sure you guys aren’t unionized already?
06-28-2008, 03:21 PM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by bullmechum
If I remember correctly B6 starting pay was $51.00hr, then $47 now $40.
-Take money from the juniors and give it to the seniors, now that’s the true aviation organized labor mentality. Sure you guys aren’t unionized already?
-Take money from the juniors and give it to the seniors, now that’s the true aviation organized labor mentality. Sure you guys aren’t unionized already?
Divided and conquer appears to be the name of the game and clear right bought it.
06-28-2008, 03:24 PM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Herkulesdrvr
You are in the minority at JB with your anti JB rhetoric.
I wasn't expecting much and got nothing, so it guess it worked out for well me.
Happy you are happy though!
06-28-2008, 04:48 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 531
Dizel,
I never said I bought anything from the company. I simply said there are three distinct pilot groups, with three different opinions in general. I am a supporter of JBPA and donated some of my hard earned money. My point was simple, Management made an effort in a very difficult time in this industry. I give them credit for that. Perhaps you did not read my last paragraph. It simply means JBPA will have to work a little harder to earn the swing vote for the fence sitters.
If you got nothing, that means you are a Senior Captain at JetBlue. I hear this argument all the time: "Don't buy the Blended Rate" but then I see on a regular basis Captain's flying 90 to 100 hours of credit a month. That means you make approximately $145.00 per hour or more. The money still goes to your checking account and Captain's keep flying their but off to make the big dollars. So explain to me again how you are not competative with the peer group on pay.
I will agree with you on Work Rules and other Benefits that a CBA can get you, but for Straight Pay, you are doing just fine compared to your peers.
Take Care
CR
I never said I bought anything from the company. I simply said there are three distinct pilot groups, with three different opinions in general. I am a supporter of JBPA and donated some of my hard earned money. My point was simple, Management made an effort in a very difficult time in this industry. I give them credit for that. Perhaps you did not read my last paragraph. It simply means JBPA will have to work a little harder to earn the swing vote for the fence sitters.
If you got nothing, that means you are a Senior Captain at JetBlue. I hear this argument all the time: "Don't buy the Blended Rate" but then I see on a regular basis Captain's flying 90 to 100 hours of credit a month. That means you make approximately $145.00 per hour or more. The money still goes to your checking account and Captain's keep flying their but off to make the big dollars. So explain to me again how you are not competative with the peer group on pay.
I will agree with you on Work Rules and other Benefits that a CBA can get you, but for Straight Pay, you are doing just fine compared to your peers.
Take Care
CR
06-28-2008, 04:55 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A320
Posts: 406
Originally Posted by Herkulesdrvr
Where did I say I didnt care? I didn't say that you did. All I'm saying is that everything I read about your posts are negative. I like JB, many guys I fly with like it as well, you sir dont seem to care about anything but putting your own company down. I believe most of our pilots and coworkers enjoy JB. You are in the minority at JB with your anti JB rhetoric. You really should enjoy what you've got because one day you might not have it.
again pointing out needed improvements is not being anti JB,is not being negative as is not putting the company down. I do enjoy working here even if I have to deal with a few uninformed kool-aid drinkers like you , which,thank god, are now in the minority.
06-28-2008, 05:45 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
<P>
</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Where should I start?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Yes, I am senior, but no, I do not fly 90-100 hrs a month, I commute, so not worth it QOL wise. Secondly, you again mention the blended pay, at 83 hrs a month, it is $142. That means if you fly 996 hrs a year, you will achieve the blended pay, however, one, you cannot, the company will not let you and you know the FAA day, month, year limits.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>You may see some pilot cranking out serious hours, some guys are very good at picking up DH's, soft time, RSAs etc, etc, but the vast majority commute, so they don't do it. Then of course you have the months in which you attend training. Some guys may fly 90 one month, in order to only fly 70 the next.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Take a look at the schedules, you have access to them. Secondly, take a look at open time, did you see any last month, any this month, think there will be much next month? How many guys do you think can build their schedules to 90+ hours in the future? How many do you think normally do, 1%,2%, 5%?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Further, you should consider, that flying more hours a month helps the company save money on pilots, since they have to have less. Should part of that saving go the pilots? </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Should the company also consider QOL for their pilots? Your answer must be yes, since you found it appropiate, that those that made less got more of a raise. Fair enough, but at the same time, you say that those more senior than you should have to work harder, to achieve the same pay that other pilot groups do. Why should the E-190 guys receive a raise, couldn't they just work more hours to reach the same pay as a senior 320 pilot? The answer of course is, they cannot, due to inherent limits, just like most guys cannot achieve the magic blended rate on all hours worked and certainly not now, if we go to 70hr bids.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>But as you have said, this isn't all about money, far from it. You think the raise is fair and proper, you think the company did the right thing, great, let us agree to disagree. However, that is the past, now we must look at the future and that future should involve getting our benefits to the level of our peers.
Plus, I should mention, we are not the only airline that pays a higher rate for working above a set number of hours. How would that work into the argument, that our "blended" rate is in the middle of the peer groups. IIRC, DAL pilot can pickup time for double pay, F9 has, or at least had, a 1.25 multiplier above a certain number of hours.
Originally Posted by Clear Right
</P>
<P>If you got nothing, that means you are a Senior Captain at JetBlue. I hear this argument all the time: "Don't buy the Blended Rate" but then I see on a regular basis Captain's flying 90 to 100 hours of credit a month. That means you make approximately $145.00 per hour or more. The money still goes to your checking account and Captain's keep flying their but off to make the big dollars. So explain to me again how you are not competative with the peer group on pay.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Take Care</P>
<P>CR
<P>If you got nothing, that means you are a Senior Captain at JetBlue. I hear this argument all the time: "Don't buy the Blended Rate" but then I see on a regular basis Captain's flying 90 to 100 hours of credit a month. That means you make approximately $145.00 per hour or more. The money still goes to your checking account and Captain's keep flying their but off to make the big dollars. So explain to me again how you are not competative with the peer group on pay.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Take Care</P>
<P>CR
<P> </P>
<P>Where should I start?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Yes, I am senior, but no, I do not fly 90-100 hrs a month, I commute, so not worth it QOL wise. Secondly, you again mention the blended pay, at 83 hrs a month, it is $142. That means if you fly 996 hrs a year, you will achieve the blended pay, however, one, you cannot, the company will not let you and you know the FAA day, month, year limits.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>You may see some pilot cranking out serious hours, some guys are very good at picking up DH's, soft time, RSAs etc, etc, but the vast majority commute, so they don't do it. Then of course you have the months in which you attend training. Some guys may fly 90 one month, in order to only fly 70 the next.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Take a look at the schedules, you have access to them. Secondly, take a look at open time, did you see any last month, any this month, think there will be much next month? How many guys do you think can build their schedules to 90+ hours in the future? How many do you think normally do, 1%,2%, 5%?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Further, you should consider, that flying more hours a month helps the company save money on pilots, since they have to have less. Should part of that saving go the pilots? </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Should the company also consider QOL for their pilots? Your answer must be yes, since you found it appropiate, that those that made less got more of a raise. Fair enough, but at the same time, you say that those more senior than you should have to work harder, to achieve the same pay that other pilot groups do. Why should the E-190 guys receive a raise, couldn't they just work more hours to reach the same pay as a senior 320 pilot? The answer of course is, they cannot, due to inherent limits, just like most guys cannot achieve the magic blended rate on all hours worked and certainly not now, if we go to 70hr bids.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>But as you have said, this isn't all about money, far from it. You think the raise is fair and proper, you think the company did the right thing, great, let us agree to disagree. However, that is the past, now we must look at the future and that future should involve getting our benefits to the level of our peers.
Plus, I should mention, we are not the only airline that pays a higher rate for working above a set number of hours. How would that work into the argument, that our "blended" rate is in the middle of the peer groups. IIRC, DAL pilot can pickup time for double pay, F9 has, or at least had, a 1.25 multiplier above a certain number of hours.
Last edited by Dizel8; 06-28-2008 at 05:59 PM.
06-28-2008, 06:39 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 531
D8,
Notice I said Credit Hours, some people are on FLICA all day, and can easily achieve 90+ hours a month. Bottom line is every pilot has an opinion and a different personal situation, (i.e. commuter/lives in domicile). Whatever the case let's just call it a healthy debate that gets people involved with the JBPA drive so we can all make an informed decision. Personally, I think the JBPA has their work cut out for them because this has placed many Mid Seniority back to the Fence. Some people you can never make happy, they are not the one's to convince. It is the Moderate's that need to be SWUNG in the vote, but now I am starting to sound like a politician. Please, let's not destroy the debate with politics.
Good Discussion, Take Care.
CR
Notice I said Credit Hours, some people are on FLICA all day, and can easily achieve 90+ hours a month. Bottom line is every pilot has an opinion and a different personal situation, (i.e. commuter/lives in domicile). Whatever the case let's just call it a healthy debate that gets people involved with the JBPA drive so we can all make an informed decision. Personally, I think the JBPA has their work cut out for them because this has placed many Mid Seniority back to the Fence. Some people you can never make happy, they are not the one's to convince. It is the Moderate's that need to be SWUNG in the vote, but now I am starting to sound like a politician. Please, let's not destroy the debate with politics.
Good Discussion, Take Care.
CR
06-28-2008, 08:05 PM
#40
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: A320 F/O
Posts: 11
Hey Clear Right, what about 2nd and 3rd year 320 F/O's who got a 0% raise. Captains needed a raise more? I'm glad you and everyone else got a raise it's well deserved. But I don't want hear management tell me about parity and that I'm paid industry average. Don't tell me about this bullsh@t blended rate. What about LGB and FLL F/O's who are 2nd and 3rd year and can't break guarantee to get it. How does this wonder rate help them. Not to mention when the bid divisor goes down to 70 hours and nobody gets it. Plus I have to read about our CEO buying a condo in the freaking Plaza Hotel for millions, and Chew getting a $12,000 a month housing allowance? What planet are you on? You are exactly what management hoped to get out of this, guys saying thank you sir may I have another. 
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