Prater's biggest supporter? I was a Duane supporter at the '06 BOD. I think Prater's done a decent job under some pretty horrible circumstances these past couple of years, but I'm hardly his "biggest supporter."

 

If that was supposed to be an evidence based rebuttal against my assertion that you make all this stuff up...you failed. Why don't you just say that: "it's a known fact."

Carl

 

Carl:

OK...how about this? It's a known fact because I was there. I was at the 06 BOD when A. Ray cut the deal with Prater for votes. I heard Prater say he didn't expect to win and didn't really know how to do the job. He later said he had "Potomac fever" and wanted an appointed job in DC.

It's a known fact because I was there when the senior ALPA staffers told me that they are actively looking to get out because Prater has run it into the ditch. I was there when they found out we had to sell off half of the 8th floor at Mass. Avenue and move senior staff away from DC where they need to be and out to Herndon, because we need the cash flow. And when the lobbyist left because Prater has done so much damage on the Hill that he didn't want to be associated with it professionally.

It's a known fact because I was told by an National Air Safety member that the Annual Air Safety Week will now be every other year because they can't afford it. They tried to cancel this years coming up, but the hotel refused to refund the deposit. And that the GCAP was cancelled in Germany last month for the same reason. The first time since GCAP's inception it's been cancelled. The first year ALPA demanded that they be the ones to host it.

Now...I was not at your airlines MEC meeting in LAS at the BOD where the vote was taken to exempt the financial oversight regarding the 400K. But two NWA pilots I have known for 25 years were. Ask your LEC reps. Ask them also about the deal that had to be brokered for your guy to become a member of the new joint MEC, because it was the only way the DAL guys, who controlled the election by one vote, would allow it. Because your outgoing MEC Chairman was trying to jam his Vice on them.

Again, Carl, not there...just reporting from two people I have known for a long time who are utterly and completely dedicated to the best for NWA pilots.

See Carl, I have a tremendous amount of respect for your pilot group at NWA. I know what you guys are made of. There needs to be a lot more of it.

As for ALPA, I only care about what's best for all airline pilots, now and in the future. The wheels are flat, we're running on the rims and the driver wants to go faster as we approach the curve. It's the members and the staff who are gonna take it in the shorts.

 

Bet they up the dues.

 

I can't speak for Prater, but I can tell you from friends in the financial industry that Moak is the only ALPA leader in recent memory to echo the EF Hutton commercials from the '80s. When he speaks, people listen. He knows the street and he also has a strong presence with members of the hill. For all of the issues I have with him on the recent relaxation of our scope, he and the other members of the MEC seem to have the most power on Wall Street and DC of any airline union leader. They, including members of our management, respect and fear him in a way. For this, he may make a solid candidate for the next ALPA National leader. I've often felt he was going this route, contrary to whatever he tells the rank and file but under his watch we successfully fended off a hostile takeover, helped engineer the largest airline merger in history, give the most money back to its members through the claim and allocation money of any group that went through BK, secured a financial stake in the new airline for its members, etc. That wouldn't have happened if management didn't have pressure from Wall Street on this. In an age where money talks, he may be the most important ally we have in a perverse way.

 

I can't speak for all of your claims, but I can completely refute your first one. I too was at the '06 BOD, and your recollection is complete BS. Yes, there was vote trading going on, but it was because Prater wanted the job bad. He had his surrogates going out there and lobbying hard, making trades to get him the gig. The idea that Prater said he didn't want the job and couldn't handle it is absolutely ridiculous. He fought tooth and nail for that job.

Because your first assertion is completely false, I'll assume that everything else you've said is a lie also.

Bet you they don't. ALPA got the message loud and clear when they tried to change the 401k dues rules. There won't be a dues increase.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL4EVER

I can't speak for Prater, but I can tell you from friends in the financial industry that Moak is the only ALPA leader in recent memory to echo the EF Hutton commercials from the '80s. When he speaks, people listen. He knows the street and he also has a strong presence with members of the hill. For all of the issues I have with him on the recent relaxation of our scope, he and the other members of the MEC seem to have the most power on Wall Street and DC of any airline union leader. They, including members of our management, respect and fear him in a way. For this, he may make a solid candidate for the next ALPA National leader. I've often felt he was going this route, contrary to whatever he tells the rank and file but under his watch we successfully fended off a hostile takeover, helped engineer the largest airline merger in history, give the most money back to its members through the claim and allocation money of any group that went through BK, secured a financial stake in the new airline for its members, etc. That wouldn't have happened if management didn't have pressure from Wall Street on this. In an age where money talks, he may be the most important ally we have in a perverse way.

If by "recent memory" you mean Prater, you are 100% correct. Having witnessed Prater's debacle's in addressing Wall Street and the Hill, it's sad for all of us and was embarrasing for the ALPA staff who put together the presentations he mangled. While I agree with you that he (Moak) is in line, the sad part is that there are no other's out there either. Elections should never be coronations.

That said, it gives pause to give serious consideration as to why your combined carrier does not stand alone. You have the mass, finances and infrastructure. That which you don't have can easily be contracted, like insurance and aeromedical products. I'm not encouraging it, but given the percentage of money that you send to DC and don't get back, you could do a lot and not have to put up with the political drama.

PCL...it's good to know that you bounce from place to place singing Prater's praises. You make a habit of calling myself and others liars when they don't follow the party line you have been given to preach. The BOD was a big place; I doubt you were everywhere. You certainly were not present at the discussions I was party to and the comments I heard firsthand. Therefore, we are left to assume that since you were not there, anything you didn't hear was is a lie. Perhaps you were busy in the hospitality suite with the hooker that was flown in from DTW and the dwarf bartender dressed like a leprechaun, I don't know and really don't care. I'll stake my almost three decades in ALPA and several terms as an MEC officer against your one. Or maybe two now. I've worked under Duffy, Babbitt, Woerth and Prater. Never in all that time with so many elections have I witnessed such a disgrace as what occurred at that BOD. Trading votes is one thing. Selling is another.

Each of those men made mistakes, but there was never an inability to lead in the manner we see today.

The other posters here and I were carrying on a well intentioned and spirited discussion. I may disagree with them on points and they with me, but I respect their points of view. Carl disagreed with me in a civil manner and I responded to that.

You however, come in and use words like "liar," without knowing facts or the people you call liar. Just as you have elsewhere. Some of us, like myself and I assume Carl, were doing this before you came into the world. (Carl, hope I don't date you too bad)

Perhaps you should consider the advice that an old UAL 777 Captain and friend of mine offered to a know-it-all F/O: "Sit back, clean out your ears and listen. You'll be amazed at what you will learn from people who have been around a lot longer than you."

 

I hear that Captain Dave Webb (FDX) is also under consideration. He would be a great choice. I'm still holding out hope that Captain Rice will choose to run. He is clearly the best option.

I think the majority of DAL pilots realize that there are tremendous benefits to having all pilots represented by a single union. Isolationism benefits no one.

Praise? Hardly. Facts? You betcha.

Hooker? Another allegation that you've made repeatedly without backing it up with any proof. The leprechaun was quite amusing, though.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. Remember, I was supporting Captain Woerth. I was not happy to witness the vote trading, especially when it involved votes for the former Master Chairman from UAL. Definitely not a fan. I won't defend what took place at the BOD. I will continue to refute your assertion that Prater didn't want the job, however. He most certainly did.

That's just funny. You jump from forum to forum doing nothing but launching vicious personal attacks against the President of the Association, and you want to talk about being civil? How about a little civility towards Captain Prater? Make you a deal: you stop the unfounded attacks against the ALPA President and I'll stop calling you a liar.

 

Todd, what you propose is not civility, but fealty. As the arbiter of what's right and wrong you offer to stop calling people liars only when they accept your vision of reality. Notice the rest of us may disagree and question how each other might have come upon information, but we don't call each other liars for not accepting the others view of the world. Only you do that as you have with others elsewhere. Todd, one must therefore assume that at some point; if we who have facts that don't coincide with your reality, that you will threaten to hold your breath until you turn blue if we don't capitulate to your world vision.

OK.

The hooker? Ask Brian ******ti, the MEC Chairman who paid her way with ALPA funds and then told the MEC Chairman at his new employer how to do it and hide the funds, and get a cut of the action if they wanted to do it for last years BOD. What, he couldn't find one in Vegas?

As for Paul? Great guy, known him for many years. Prater cut his knees off with IFALPA by putting Sluys in there to oversight him. But his own people have not supported him in the past and likely won't next round. Dave is a nice guy too, but disliked by his rank and file and as much as I like him personally, too much of a fence sitter.

Beyond that, ALPA legacies will never elect a cargo pilot to head the union. Hell, we wouldn't elect the FDX candidate for VP-Finance who had light years more qualifications than Helling.

As to my discussion with others about Moak and DAL standing alone which got hijacked, the fact is that there is nothing for DAL to gain by staying other than the perception of unity. If DAL went out tomorrow and you guys at AirTran were in ALPA, would you honor their picket line and refuse to cross it to fly your planes? Nope. Neither would anyone else. You'd do a "resolution of unity with your DAL brothers in their time of conflict" and go about your lives. So would everyone else. And when you got hit with a strike assessment and an assessment to refloat the MCF, everyone would ***** about it. Because they always do and DAL would be an easy target because they are the biggest dog in the kennel.

Conversely, if you go out on strike because your fifth negotiating committee can't get a deal, will DAL honor your picket line and refuse to cross it like true trade unionists...or will they go scoop your traffic and put you out of business? That's not a knock at them, just an economic reality. Until there is true trade unionism, you are viewed as a lower cost carrier that management will use as a reason to demand lower wages in the market. And since there is no leadership at ALPA willing to stand up and draw that line in the sand, you're toast.

 

It was meant TIC.