DYNASTY HVY

I was going to do a poll but chose instead to go this route .
What are your thought's in regards to doing actual stall and spin training along with recurrent ?
It is one thing to use the sim and an entirely different arena to doing actual training .

Fred

deadstick35

I think I took about 35,000 to get out of a spin. The ground stopped it.

I thought I was going to break the sim because that thing was bucking so hard. The instructor was bracing himself in the back, my sim partner was grabbing his shoulder harness straps, Jepps flying everywhere -- it was a blast, well, except for the reflection on our own mortality after the red screen. Actually, the second time around I almost got it out (no lie!), but the box did get knocked off motion.

The lesson learned was DON'T GET IN THAT SITUATION. Nonetheless, never stop flying the airplane.

DYNASTY HVY

Stall/Spin/Upset Training
Maybe this will clarify .

Fred

deadstick35

I think in the sim of the aircraft you are flying is better because the techniques used in an Extra would be different. I'd think you'd want to train with what you would have in the real scenario. If you are a career CFI, who flies dozens of different GA aircraft, fly the Extra. I just think there are too many differences.

acl65pilot

I have done it and ASA does it as part of their training. It is a good bit to have.

DYNASTY HVY

I agree and it is good training to have , as they say every little bit helps.

Fred

UAL T38 Phlyer

Fred:

Some 35-ish years ago, I was in high school and reading airplane magazines, dreaming of the day I could be furloughed from a legacy carrier.

I was reading an article in Air Progress. The subject was spin training, and had two authors with opposing views. The anti-advocate said it was hard on the airplanes, particularly attitude gyros; that we should be teaching avoidance. I think the 'pro' spin advocate was Peter Lert, or maybe Budd Davisson, two fairly well-known writers.

Anyway, the thing that stuck with me over all these years: the guy who advocated spin training said:

"It is theoretically possible, by FAR, for a guy to go from private pilot, all the way to Captain of a 747, and have never seen a spin."

At the time, I thought "Is that true?" And I hadn't yet taken my first lesson, let alone seen a spin.

But after a couple of zillion spins in the military (Air Force and Navy), and holding a 747 type rating, I can't think of any FAR that would require spin training to get to the top of the food-chain.

Both the Air Force and the Navy teach their primary students to spin and do aerobatics. It's a way to separate the queasy ones from the crowd, and to figure out who is going on to fighters. But I think it is significant that it also means every transport-category pilot in the military----or helicopter pilot---has dealt with spins, departing controlled flight (OOCF for you Navy guys), and the most unusual attitudes in upset recoveries you could imagine.

I think learning it in an airplane that is built for it helps. Once you know how to do that, see if you can conquer the unthinkable in an airliner (in the sim, of course).

Deadstick says "Just don't get there." (Paraphrasing). You can't always guarantee things.

The Navy recovered a P-3 from a spin in the last year. When the L-188 rolled over, I think they were at 9000 ft. Any Navy guys want to correct the details, jump in.

They cracked a few parts but landed and walked away. I believe it was fixable. And I think it has a direct correlation to having aerobatic backgrounds.

They shouldn't have gotten into that position. But thank God they had the experience to get out of it.

eaglefly

Valid comments, but I thnk that at this point (flying sweptwing jet airline aircraft) stall spin PREVENTION would be more beneficial than spin exposure. Sure, a pilot should have experienced these before getting to this level, but if any of us happen to fully stall a transport catagory jet aircraft, let alone let it progress to a spin, then exposure or recovery practice will likely do little good. Your odds of recovery are slim to none, unless you happen to MAYBE have 35,000 feet under your belt and what are you doing stalling in cruise flight then anyway.

From an both odds and risk standpoint, this type of accident is so rare, that valuable training time should go in other directions, like better situational awarness exercises and multitask/high workload scenarios.

During intial RJ training at my airline, I got to do a full stall (with the SPS system off) and it went into a tail slide, flipped inverted at the blink of an eye and then mimiced that scene in the Right Stuff where the Chuck Yeager character is bouncing around the cockpit with all these wild gyrations outside the canopy. Except it my case, it was night and all I could do was apply the typical anti-stall/spin inputs in either direction and watch as the attitude indicator spun crazily in all directions showing blue and brown in various parts of the PFD too fast to comprehend and the sim slamming back and forth against it's stops. Amazingly the sim recovered after ten seconds and I think I lost almost 20,000 feet and another 3-5,000 during the pull out, but it didn't recover because of what I did as there was no way for the brain to process any information in order to determine my situation. It was so violent and disorienting I couldn't tell if it was spinning left or right or I was in some kind of Lomcevak (tumble). I've done spins before as a CFI and some acro in a Decathelon, but this recovery had to have been a fluke.

Point being, this is one situation in transport catagory aircraft that you AVOID and not recover from. Of course, that's the point of a stick pusher.

JetPiedmont

Anyone who wants to can go to a local airport, find an instructor with a Cub or similar, and do two things: Spins, and crosswind landings.

I highly reccomend both. You'll be much more proficient and fly with much more confidence. The knowledge is transferable.

SkyHigh

If you get into a spin in a jet or j-3 cub most likely it will occur because you have slowed down too much during a landing sequence. In either plane it means that you are dead. A better plan is to teach awareness just like they have been doing over the last 40 years.

SKyhigh