I am reading a lot on here about inexperienced flight crews, and things like ALPA should campaign against lesser experienced pilots. My questions are these... Where are we to gain experience? What will happen when ALL of the experienced pilots are no longer allowed to fly?

I think I need to say this is not flame bait. That way I won't get censored. But its not. I am reading these threads and confused about where all of tomorrows professional pilots will come from. There are not enough retiring from the military and regional airline pilots don't seem to meet the standards set by the professionals and of course the media. So what are we to do? Does some one need to have a stroke of luck and ditch a regional sized airplane in the hudson to qualify them as an expert.

There is a lot of finger pointing once again and NO answers. Unity among pilots is of course out the window as well. Instead of pilots at companies with something to loose protecting what they have from the evil corporations that run them they simply want to complain and talk down to those that have no dog in the fight.

It seems this viscous circle repeats itself anytime someone looses flying. This is why half or more of the pilots you fly with have no clue what is going on in the industry, they are tired of the monotony of nothing getting done.

It just dawned on my that I have learned something with this post. Wow.

Moderator, maybe I picked the wrong spot to post this, move it as you wish.

 

Hey man its been a while. I know I use to really keep up with stuff on APC but you may be on to something there. Maybe I just got so tired of the same BS fighting that I just gave it up....oh well more time for a beer now.

 

Fast answer that is factual, it really points to training. Inexperience is a normal part of the process. It is the training involved and how the 'inexperienced' are trained. The focal point will look at training.
Example: I am a heavy driver Captain very experienced in domestic 121 operations. I now go to a new heavy airplane flying worldwide 121 international operations, Atlantic/Pacific/South America.
I am now an inexperienced pilot despite previous domestic experience.
Now the focal point goes to training, if properly trained and brought online with crews trained and experienced in these operations, chances are that I will become 'experienced' in a safe manner.
The challenge is that many operators want to do it on the cheap. Thus, inexperience can get people into trouble, but really it was often poor training by the company.
Fire away..

 

The time honored and sacred seniority system does not help much....

Pairing newbees on the worst trips.

 

The system used to produce experienced pilots for the regionals. Most started out as flight instructors and then went on to some type of job flying twins in charter type operations. This was often very demanding flying. Usually at night and often single pilot IFR. In the last few years what management at the regionals has hired has shifted. Many airlines were highering 300 hour wonders who went through training academies. 10 years ago you would not get a look at most regionals without 1500 or more hours. When they speak of experience this is what they are talking about.

 

So it seems simple enough to me. Require an ATP (minimum of 1500 hours), to fly in ANY CREW seat that transports people for a 121 carrier. I would also encourage the FAA to change the ATP minimums to 1500 hours as PIC, not simply total time.

 

Having an ATP is not the answer. If I read the transcripts correctly, the FO had over 1,600 hours when the crash happened, meaning she had ATP standards, yet this was her first experience with icing and deicing. Besides, an ATP obtained on the "outside" (ie. a flight school) is just a glorified instrument check ride, not an accurate barometer of experience and/or judgment.

The issue at hand here is not so much the experience level of the FO but more of the Captain. At the regionals, especially a "bottom feeding" outfit like Colgan where the turnover is so great, finding and keeping experienced Captains is difficult. What happens is that you end up pairing an inexperienced FO with a CA who may not have much more experience than the FO. IOW, the FO doesn't have the opportunity to learn or gain experience from a wisened Captain as it should be.

This is typically not an issue at the larger regionals, where movement is stagnant and you have pilots who have been in their respective seats for years. When you have Colgan pilots leave for other regionals, that should tell you something.

Note that I'm painting with a wide brush. I'm sure Colgan has great, experienced Captains, just as I know that there are Captains at large regionals and majors that have no business being there. But when you pay pilots crap and treat them as such, it's hard to keep an experienced work force.

 

I'm not not the FAA and I'm not in the training department. Just because you have 1600 hours doesn't necessarily mean you MEET ATP STANDARDS!

Again, that's why I say MAYBE changing the ATP minimums (1500 PIC), and requiring one to fly for ANY 121 carrier, is the answer.

Think about it. You've spent several years as a flight instructor, flying checks, towing banners or whatever to get 1500 hours of PIC time. Hell, even some of the military folks would be required to spend some coin in the civilian world to get to 1500 hours PIC. All this time equates to EXPERIENCE. Now, are you going to take that regional job below minimum wage after enduring several years of this? My guess is some will, but many will not. It creates a barrier to entry and requires that you actually fly an airplane for awhile before becoming an airline pilot.

Regionals just aren't economical without cheap labor. Get rid of cheap labor, regionals of today start to fade away. The strong will survive. They will have better work rules, pay, QOL, etc. and their route stucture will be completely different...it will be regional. The majors will recapture a good chunck of that former RJ flying that's profitable (maybe even with big RJ's at the major), which equates to more jobs at the major level...IMHO of course.

 

First, THERE IS NO PILOT SHORTAGE! There might be a shortage of people wanting to work for $20K/year. I'm one of those. I'm unemployed and I won't work for that. Is 10000+ hours low time?

Second, training is a very important issue. Watch out for this MPL (Multi pilot crew license?) that airlines want to push through. It's basically and ab initio program. You pay for the larger part of it. You spend months in a sim, getting lots of "time." They then put you in the right seat for $20K/yr.

Third, THERE IS NO PILOT SHORTAGE! There are hundreds, if not thousands, of airline pilots put out of work in the last 18 months. Many have gone overseas to find something. Meanwhile, the flight schools are selling a dream (nightmare) to prospective students. It's all BS, but the regionals will be hiring "pilots" with 300TT and a wet CMEL certificate in the next year or so.

 

That's the problem, though. ATP standards aren't really that high. The check ride itself is just an instrument check ride to slightly higher standards. Since the Colgan FO passed her initial 121 training, she would have had no problem meeting ATP standards.

As for the PIC requirement, today's general aviation flight instructor, because of the stagnation in the industry, will likely have at least 1,500 hours by the time the regionals start hiring again en mass. Almost all of it will be PIC. And most, if not all, of that will probably have been spent flying around the traffic pattern or the practice area in a Cessna or a Piper on sunny days. Provided the pilot has a modicum of skill flying an ILS and a GPS approach on a calm day under the hood, he or she will qualify and obtain an ATP.

I'd rather have someone in the right seat with 750 hours of quality, hard-IMC, four-seasons, high-density airport experience and a Commerical certificate than a 1,500-hour C-172 wonder with an ATP.

But I do agree with you. We need to raise the price of entry without making it totally prohibitive financially. In my opinion, though, requiring an ATP is not the solution. What's also not helping is that the jobs where you can cut your teeth, like flying checks (which I did for 2 years and learned a hell of a lot) are all going away.