Ottopilot

Thank you! Any line pilot that has a problem with an item like this during contract negotiations IS THE PROBLEM. Why fight the FO? Fight the company together. United we stand....Divided we fall!? CAL still has not learned this concept. I'll stand with the FO on this issue.

BuffaloA10

How do you get that I equated Mil pilots to little hitlers? Reading into things a bit...

When I go to my military job (ummm, 23 yrs experience) I understand that a Full Col or G.O. may give me an order I may not like or I disagree with, yet as long as it is legal and I am a comissioned officer I will comply. To equate an airline crew scenario as the same as a military one is, frankly, crazy. And all airline CRM/CLR/whatever programs, plus labor law, say the same thing.

I never swore any oath to my company! But I have flown with plenty of "company" folks who seem to have

And yes I am an airline pilot as well. One of my trips I flew as a 727 F/O taught me a ton about CLR and I will never forget it. During preflight the "c"apt asked me about my feelings on the age 60 rule. I told him. He didn't like it. From that moment on he undermined the safety, teamwork and integrity of the trip. He wouldn't even answer my questions, help me when I was the PF, set altitude bugs, etc. It was unreal. I am very regretful that I 1) put up with his unprofessional, immature actions, 2) didn't remove myself from the trip and go to pro standards and 3) I resolved to never make the same mistakes again - as an F/O or Capt.

The "issues" I have are with folks who have decided what the Capt and F/O "probably" did or "likely" did - seemingly just to confirm their own feelings on how they think an interaction between Capt or F/O should go, or if they like unions or not, or bracelets or not, etc

The Capt is responsible for the safe, legal conduct of the flight. They are responsible to create an atmosphere that is conducive to such actions. They are not there to police everyone's attire. IMHO Commenting on a stained shirt, or lack of proper attire is one thing, the bracelet thing another. For the scenario to go to removal of the F/O is way outta there, and (again IMHO) lays at the feet of the Capt who is supposed to be the more mature, thoughtful and experienced crewmember.

When I lead a 4 ship of A-10s it is a whole different scenario in one respect (rank, position, title-10, military custom, etc) but similar in another. As the 4 ship FL it is my job to bring everyone in as a team so we can effectively execute the mission. When I act in a way that cuts off imput from the flight members I may have set us up for failure, and that may cost lives on the ground. For a civilian part 121 scenario the "command" authority of the Capt is more restricted, and bracelet wear certainly seems to strain the limit to me

But I wasn't there so I don't want to comment on how I imagine it went down. I do know that the capt apologized (kudos for that) and the F/O got her flight pay...

577nitro

"I think you "probably" have something against unions. "
Severe understatement.


"BL: At then end of the day He's the one who has had to apologize and her pay was restored. Hmmmm"

Why, did she threaten to sue?

577nitro

The more I read this the more I think you have a problem with authority. Possibly that band was a [ ]to the CA and he was having none of it. Not that it was a band, but the message it sent. Which is what you seem to be missing completely.

BuffaloA10

AMEN brother!!

We either hang together or we hang separately

BuffaloA10

Every pilot who makes his living flying for some company owes a huge debt of gratitude to those brave men who risked their jobs (and violence) starting ALPA. The fact that $150-250/hr Capt pay, with A/B funds, medical, etc is even in the realm of possibility isn't because of generous managements. Not to mention all the safety rules they got put into the FARs. It's because of better men that FORCED management to pay us fairly. The same unions that defend the profession, even when they are defending scabs and union haters if it is for the greater good.

For those who have "huge problems" with unions, incl ALPA, yet profit daily from their sacrifices, you seem to me a bit hypocritical and ungrateful. It's because of them we have flight and duty time limits, and can't get fired for refusing a jet, and can enforce senority, etc, etc

It's not because of lazy, self-centered, big-ego'd "union haters"

Then to accuse the F/O of threatening to sue, man you take the cake. Sad

newKnow

Dude, I really don't know what to say about you. Notice to "severe understatement;" without a union the company could have just fired them both. Without a union, the problem with authority you mention in your next post, is that there is no authority. In that world, the captain could have tried to make the FO do a walk around and could have been fired if he "got into it" with her for not doing it.

Without a union in the United States today, you have no "just cause" provision for rightful termination and the very "authority" you accuse him of having a problem with is non- existient.

Your "old school" mentality dates back to before there were child labor laws. Come join us on the 21st century, where a what a wristband is,is open to consideration and how much jewelry you buy your wife only makes you an authority on your wife.

CRM is huge in todays industry and this captain failed miserably at it.

Zapata

Apparently, you didn't read your own links. Please post some of these 100 other "links".

Please, provide a link of a positive test....not just hearsay. Until then, you're just mindlessly propagating rumors.

solinator

First, thanks to all your posts regarding the issue of free speech. I appreciate your comments. I actually think you guys are right in the sense that a private company can and should uphold their rules and regulations. Especially when the profession REQUIRES one to be an absolute professional. Pilots are responsible for the safety of so many lives as you guys fly us from one place to another. Sometimes, I can't believe you guys do what you do in such a calm manner; it'd be a wreck!

There are, I believe, certain things that take priority, like being a professional--a professional pilot, a professional doctor--when it requires it. In this case, the lady pilot wanted to stand up for her rights, which I admire. But I can see that when it comes to it, she also needed to act professional and maintain discipline. I guess what I am trying to say is, there are times for that and not in the "operating room" when it's less appropriate and your personal stand on an issue should not take priority over safety and the decorum of your profession. Do I think the CO did the wrong thing by kicking her out? I think he too should have maintained discipline and could have just talked to her AFTER the flight (e.g. the operation), where it was more appropriate. The task at hand was, in my humble opinion, to safely get those passengers from point A to B. Was what he did distasteful? In my opinion, yes, because in the grand scheme of things, is wearing that "silly" band that big of a deal that he had to kick her out of the plane? As a passenger and if I saw this happening on my flight, I would've questioned his professionalism. She on the other hand, although courageous, could have chosen a better way to get her views and opinions across--at least a more appropriate time.

577nitro's post that made me realize this as I was reading it...

Anyway, thanks to all of you for being professional and providing good feedback... I would have been kicked out in other forums.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

From the "source" you just provided:
"Abt had a chance to talk to David Walsh, one of the book's authors, and Walsh admitted "there is no smoking gun in the extract or in the full book to prove that Armstrong, a 32-year-old Texan, engaged in doping."

Amazing… If a person passes his or her FAA check ride and later you end up flying with that person would you refuse the trip because your captain's/copilot's "Ex-Friend” says that way back when he/she did some drinking while in college?

Seriously, let the professionals deal with determining his “guilt” - so far he's been proven innocent and last time I checked you're presumed innocent until proven guilty, correct?

His charity has done wonderful things for cancer victims - why that hate? Are you Sheryl Crow?

(Kidding, they're still good friends)