Delta Flight attend. to vote
07-31-2009, 12:40 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It is something called laws. The reason that DAL lets these girls fly is money. Simply put, if they did something that would disqualify them, it would have to be something physical. If that happened, then they will drain DAL sitting at home with their cats collecting disability.
The threat of them going out on medical en mass is a real issue. Disability for 4000 FA's would cost DAL a ton.
That in a nut shell is why DAL lets them fly till they die.
The threat of them going out on medical en mass is a real issue. Disability for 4000 FA's would cost DAL a ton.
That in a nut shell is why DAL lets them fly till they die.
07-31-2009, 02:42 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by FlyingViking
I can see the reasoning here but I also have to agree with the safety issue others brought up. If a FA can't make it through an emergency situation due to their medical or physical condition, how can DAL be responsible for their finances? I really have no problem with their age, but the size 28 (in a red dress or not) is a nightmare for the pax, the rest of the crew, and the company. Not to mention the lawsuit in (god forbid we have one) a real emergency where a FA got stuck in the emergency exit. If one take all considerations into the equation, the fact might be that it will be cheaper to lay them off until they again are able to perform the duties they were hired for in the first place???
On a related note, I sat next to a FNWA FA last night on the bus to parking. She is hoping the FDAL FA's approve the union but, surprisingly, she wasn't hard over about it. She was hoping for good relations when the crews are mixed. Very refreshing actually.
07-31-2009, 02:46 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by hoserpilot
Do you guys really want the flight attendants to get a union? I know a union would help THEM in gaining ground but the pie is only so big. Every gain they make has to come from the same pool of money that we negotiate for. I know I sound selfish but our piece of the pie will be smaller if the fa's get a union and are able to negotiate items that cost the company more money. Disclosure - I'm not married to a flight attendant, hence my position.
07-31-2009, 06:31 PM
#34
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Using your rationale, I have to ask, is there any particular group that you hope dies from a debilitating disease just so YOU don't catch it?
What does dying from a disease have to do with the union vote? The fa's don't give a crap about anything except their cats. I guess with your rationale we could have a massive cat disease and maybe some of the size 28's would retire!!
SAY NO TO SIZE 28 DRESSES!!!!!
For the record I usually don't flame but the cocktails have been flowing and I just don't give a hoot tonight.
What does dying from a disease have to do with the union vote? The fa's don't give a crap about anything except their cats. I guess with your rationale we could have a massive cat disease and maybe some of the size 28's would retire!!
SAY NO TO SIZE 28 DRESSES!!!!!
For the record I usually don't flame but the cocktails have been flowing and I just don't give a hoot tonight.
07-31-2009, 07:20 PM
#35
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Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by hoserpilot
For the record I usually don't flame but the cocktails have been flowing and I just don't give a hoot tonight.
So.. In a Schwarzenneger
voice.. "You should not drink... and type"
08-01-2009, 01:13 AM
#36
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Posts: 1,408
That's exactly how management feels about you. 
Originally Posted by hoserpilot
Do you guys really want the flight attendants to get a union? I know a union would help THEM in gaining ground but the pie is only so big. Every gain they make has to come from the same pool of money that we negotiate for. I know I sound selfish but our piece of the pie will be smaller if the fa's get a union and are able to negotiate items that cost the company more money. Disclosure - I'm not married to a flight attendant, hence my position.
08-01-2009, 05:12 AM
#37
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I don't think the F/A's would get a significantly different portion of the pie if they unionized. In fact, if you compare workrules/compensation for the pre-merger F/A groups, you could conclude the unionized group gets even less. Maybe this differential was based on the conditions at the two airlines, so you can't make broad conclusions about union-vs.-non-union from this alone. So maybe you examine how the Delta F/A's have fared over time vs. AMR, UAL, etc. I believe they've done quite well. I also believe a combined AFA group at Delta will not be very united, or very effective, and therefore will be incapable of attaining good contracts for a while. So the "piece of the pie" argument isn't very compelling to me.
For me, it's more a matter of having a large, disorganized, divided, bitter group disrupting our own work, to the benefit of managament. I'd love to work in tandem with another powerful and effective union on property, so that we could in effect do in-house pattern-bargaining. But I fear AFA at DAL will be divided from the start by a poor vote, and will be ineffective for several contracts to come. If past performance is any indication, they'll turn defensive, and try to focus their members' anger at the lack of results towards other groups, and other issues (witness the size-28 red dress). It's bad enough that part of the company's strategy has been to divide us and them, without having a desperate AFA trying to implement such a strategy from within.
From a big-picture perspective, the F/A's have been much more effective without a union, which has left us the latitude of being the only significant unionized group the company has to contend with, and everyone of our gains is immediately given to the other groups, for fear they would unionize. This "me-too" stuff has in fact worked well in both directions. That will not be the case when everyone has their own contract.
For me, it's more a matter of having a large, disorganized, divided, bitter group disrupting our own work, to the benefit of managament. I'd love to work in tandem with another powerful and effective union on property, so that we could in effect do in-house pattern-bargaining. But I fear AFA at DAL will be divided from the start by a poor vote, and will be ineffective for several contracts to come. If past performance is any indication, they'll turn defensive, and try to focus their members' anger at the lack of results towards other groups, and other issues (witness the size-28 red dress). It's bad enough that part of the company's strategy has been to divide us and them, without having a desperate AFA trying to implement such a strategy from within.
From a big-picture perspective, the F/A's have been much more effective without a union, which has left us the latitude of being the only significant unionized group the company has to contend with, and everyone of our gains is immediately given to the other groups, for fear they would unionize. This "me-too" stuff has in fact worked well in both directions. That will not be the case when everyone has their own contract.
08-01-2009, 06:54 AM
#38
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Posts: 19,273
I would agree with the above. Historically the Delta flight attendants have enjoyed union wage levels and work rules. There has been a shift with the Chapter 11 filing but compared to other airlines that filed they are still ahead. I would prefer they get a union. Many things we have sought as improvements as pilots get pushed aside because when the company costs them out they cost it with the flight attendants getting the same benefit.
A few examples.
DALPA negotiates a first time jump seat for the pilots. Within 10 days a jumpseat program is announced for the flight attendants.
Dalpa negotiates flow back jumpseats. Within days flowback announced for the flight attendants.
Dalpa negotiates the jumpseat to be non bumpable for weight issues. Same program given to the flight attendants.
Dalpa challanges and wins over issue of increased pass charges. Company refunds pilots money that was easily well over a thousand dollars for many commuting pilots. Company refunds all flight attendants money at the same time.
Dalpa negotiates free parking at any base for pilots. Flight attendants given same benefit within weeks.
Dalpa negotiates pay raises, almost always followed by a pay raise for the flight attendants and other employees. Latest was last Jan.
Dalpa restores flight time and duty rigs, flight attendant rigs restored shortly after. Delta flight attendant rigs similiar to pilots.
A current example of how this hurts us is the attempt to get the NWA commuter policy in place at Delta. The company wont go for it because they feel they would have to give it to the flight attendants also and the program would then crumble under its own weight and abuse. If they were union we might now have that program in place.
Let them vote in a union and carry their own weight, even if its a size 28.
A few examples.
DALPA negotiates a first time jump seat for the pilots. Within 10 days a jumpseat program is announced for the flight attendants.
Dalpa negotiates flow back jumpseats. Within days flowback announced for the flight attendants.
Dalpa negotiates the jumpseat to be non bumpable for weight issues. Same program given to the flight attendants.
Dalpa challanges and wins over issue of increased pass charges. Company refunds pilots money that was easily well over a thousand dollars for many commuting pilots. Company refunds all flight attendants money at the same time.
Dalpa negotiates free parking at any base for pilots. Flight attendants given same benefit within weeks.
Dalpa negotiates pay raises, almost always followed by a pay raise for the flight attendants and other employees. Latest was last Jan.
Dalpa restores flight time and duty rigs, flight attendant rigs restored shortly after. Delta flight attendant rigs similiar to pilots.
A current example of how this hurts us is the attempt to get the NWA commuter policy in place at Delta. The company wont go for it because they feel they would have to give it to the flight attendants also and the program would then crumble under its own weight and abuse. If they were union we might now have that program in place.
Let them vote in a union and carry their own weight, even if its a size 28.
08-01-2009, 07:18 AM
#39
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Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Sailing...agree with you 100%. However, I think your post is a great summary of why the union will fail with the flight attendants. Why pay union dues when you essentially get the benefits of unionization via DALPA's efforts?
I also think the whole red dress issue will backfire on the union...makes them look pretty silly at a very bad time relative to the vote.
I also think the whole red dress issue will backfire on the union...makes them look pretty silly at a very bad time relative to the vote.
08-01-2009, 07:41 AM
#40
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by Sink r8
I don't think the F/A's would get a significantly different portion of the pie if they unionized. In fact, if you compare workrules/compensation for the pre-merger F/A groups, you could conclude the unionized group gets even less. Maybe this differential was based on the conditions at the two airlines, so you can't make broad conclusions about union-vs.-non-union from this alone. So maybe you examine how the Delta F/A's have fared over time vs. AMR, UAL, etc. I believe they've done quite well. I also believe a combined AFA group at Delta will not be very united, or very effective, and therefore will be incapable of attaining good contracts for a while. So the "piece of the pie" argument isn't very compelling to me.
For me, it's more a matter of having a large, disorganized, divided, bitter group disrupting our own work, to the benefit of managament. I'd love to work in tandem with another powerful and effective union on property, so that we could in effect do in-house pattern-bargaining. But I fear AFA at DAL will be divided from the start by a poor vote, and will be ineffective for several contracts to come. If past performance is any indication, they'll turn defensive, and try to focus their members' anger at the lack of results towards other groups, and other issues (witness the size-28 red dress). It's bad enough that part of the company's strategy has been to divide us and them, without having a desperate AFA trying to implement such a strategy from within.
From a big-picture perspective, the F/A's have been much more effective without a union, which has left us the latitude of being the only significant unionized group the company has to contend with, and everyone of our gains is immediately given to the other groups, for fear they would unionize. This "me-too" stuff has in fact worked well in both directions. That will not be the case when everyone has their own contract.
For me, it's more a matter of having a large, disorganized, divided, bitter group disrupting our own work, to the benefit of managament. I'd love to work in tandem with another powerful and effective union on property, so that we could in effect do in-house pattern-bargaining. But I fear AFA at DAL will be divided from the start by a poor vote, and will be ineffective for several contracts to come. If past performance is any indication, they'll turn defensive, and try to focus their members' anger at the lack of results towards other groups, and other issues (witness the size-28 red dress). It's bad enough that part of the company's strategy has been to divide us and them, without having a desperate AFA trying to implement such a strategy from within.
From a big-picture perspective, the F/A's have been much more effective without a union, which has left us the latitude of being the only significant unionized group the company has to contend with, and everyone of our gains is immediately given to the other groups, for fear they would unionize. This "me-too" stuff has in fact worked well in both directions. That will not be the case when everyone has their own contract.
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