Sink r8

Lists don't normally "extend" without mergers, and then subject to merger policy. Unless of course we strike some sort of agreement. Setting aside the issue of the non-existent merger, how do you envision this "extension"? A staple? An agreement before we jointly petition for a merger?

If so, I would be onboard.

Superpilot92

If so then these people need to be recalled out of those positions. They were put there to represent the pilots that elected them, not themselves!! These clowns are destroying ALPA by continuing to neglect the pilots they are supposed to represent. What has ALPA done in the last few years to help the industry as a whole? If they keep undermining the profession then its only a matter of time before ALPA self destructs.

DPA is closer and closer every time stuff like this happens.

slowplay

Here's where you start with the "hope and change" thing....

You have never articulated a concrete, workable plan to accomplish "extend(ing) our list below us."

Are you just going in to management and demand it? Suggest it? Cajole it? Where is your leverage today? We are where we are. How do you get to where you want to be?

How can you force management to take 335+ pilots and a separate company onto our list, with all the contractual and cost differences? What of the rest of the CPZ structure? Where does it go? If you were to succeed in getting CPZ on the list, what happens to the aircraft limitations of Section 1? Why would management bend on what's already in the book? How do you derive your inclusive scope, yet avoid the whipsaw of 76 seat flying at the bottom of the now Delta list? Where is your leverage today?

Along the way, how are you going to merge Compass onto our list? DOH? Staple? Who is going to represent those pilots in that integration? There's at least one CPZ pilot that has an opinion on his representation by the Delta MEC that doesn't agree with yours.

We've exchanged PM's on this, Bar. Nobody advocating making CPZ pilots Delta pilots has answered the hard questions with other than "hope and change."

mynameisjim

First, get the CPZ pilots to agree on a staple. I'm guessing you'd have 98% approval. Next, apply for single carrier status or single transportation system (i'm not that familiar).

Compass pilots fly Northwest Jets on Northwest Routes receiving Northwest paychecks. If enough people wanted it to happen, I don't think it would be that hard.

Bucking Bar

Management has already asked the question regarding a single list / merger to facilitate the flow / furlough which both sides admit does not work. Being able to bid through would reduce the training footprint and not be too small a hole to force a 12,700 pilot airline through on the way up and the way down. (management backed off when furloughs were determined not to be an issue for now and we've sure not brought it up again)

We missed opportunities during the JPWA and again during the settlement of the scope grievance.

We are nearly constantly in some sort of scope negotiation. Fact is, we've NEVER EVEN ASKED THE QUESTION. We don't want unity, have not evaluated it, it is not part of our negotiating agenda.

The problem is not getting the list done. The problem is that we don't want to do it. We did not know the details of the NWA merger, yet we worked out a deal 100 times more complicated than 300 pilots who are already in staple seniority order.

Pilots on the E175 can work it for current rates. If we get a E190/195 then it comes to mainline and we'll have to figure out if we'll work it like we do the MD90, or like the 737-700. It could be done.

Bucking Bar

I just flew with a guy who was part of Pan Am when they extended their list down, capturing Ransome (Pan Am Express). Not only has it been done before, we have pilots on our list who were a part of that deal. He spoke very highly of the arrangement. I asked that he call his Rep and talk up what worked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pan_Am_Express.jpg

Bucking Bar

Jim - Slow and Sailing are correct that getting a single carrier filing approved without management agreement is impossible. If curious why, read about how Teamsters and TSA beat up ALPA with GoJets.

ALPA really tried to do the right thing and lost. The precedent that was set is horrible.

slowplay

You've stated this before. I've asked around the union side. Nobody can verify your assertion. Nobody that I've talked to has been asked, nor was it offered.

I can get the list done tonight. That takes a word processor. It probably would even pass legal review and we'd only get sued by a few CPZ guys.

I can't get the list implemented. Ever. Not without management concurrence and significant changes to our contract. Too say that the question was never asked is not accurate. Management created Compass. Management has grown Compass to its maximum size. 76 seat jet flying was extracted in bankruptcy negotiations by both NWA and DAL management. They are not going to "gift" it back.

We already have an E-190 rate in the book. What I'm reading is that you support a B-scale included on the property. You'll work to fix it later. Is that correct?

That pay scale is one of many reasons management would never acquiesce to an implemented seniority list even if we could prove operational integration (we can't). Why would they give away a cost advantage until they have to? The PAA example you mentioned had signficantly different components, including the financial condition of the carrier involved versus the rest of the industry and economy.

acl65pilot

Slow, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a "B" scale mean to hire those guys on at a lower rate on all of the equipment, not just the E-Jets?

I see this proposal as a graduated step, and or a market rate for the jets, not a B scale.

slowplay

We did this once before at Delta Express (Sunshine) in 1996. While you're correct that it's not a B-scale, the Express guys called it a "C" scale. We expended significant negotiating capital changing the pay and rules during C2K, and that began the demise of the operation. Compass would be strikingly similar, except that it doesn't move Captains seats currently on mainline behind mainline guys.

There's a lot more in cost savings in the Compass book than just pay. Almost every aspect of their book is less expensive.