Facts - NTSB Re: NWA 188
10-26-2009, 10:53 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Waiting for retirements
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by satchip
Sure there is a difference, Joe. A moron and a neophyte don't know how to fly in icing, can't recognize a stall, and then pull full aft stick and raise the flaps resulting in the deaths of dozens of people. In the other instance two guys get involved in a discussion about their jobs, get lost on the radio, and inconvenience dozens of people resulting in some missed connections. The difference is amount of body bags required to clean up the mess.
Were those guys wrong? Yep, they screwed the pooch and may lose their jobs. But everyone walked through the jet bridge. Can you honestly say that in your vast and storied flying career that you have never been lost on the radio? It happens every day. These guys had the extreme misfortune to have it happen near their destination.
Were those guys wrong? Yep, they screwed the pooch and may lose their jobs. But everyone walked through the jet bridge. Can you honestly say that in your vast and storied flying career that you have never been lost on the radio? It happens every day. These guys had the extreme misfortune to have it happen near their destination.
10-26-2009, 10:54 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 777 Left
Posts: 347
Originally Posted by captjns
Perhaps with the perception the public has of pilots it's very cathartic for some to vent. And where's a better place for a pilot vent?
Do you recall the sound clip that was going around the net right after 911? The one with the Captain announcing what type of guns he and the crew were carrying? Dang that was funny. I would love to vent on the PA sometime...... but of course I won't.
Seriously though, I am venting the other way. I would like to see the results from the investigation and let it play out without all of us beating the heck out of each other and ourselves. While I agree that they were outside of SOP, I think that the general public knows this is not the norm and that we are professionals. It just irks me though - When Sully was getting good attention, many were complaining. Now we are getting the wrong kind of attention and the comlaining keeps going. If we want to discuss this, let's do it in a manner that is reflective of our training and education. That's all.
Have a great night.
10-26-2009, 11:45 PM
#103
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by FastDEW
I thought that that is what the PA was for?
Do you recall the sound clip that was going around the net right after 911? The one with the Captain announcing what type of guns he and the crew were carrying? Dang that was funny. I would love to vent on the PA sometime...... but of course I won't.
Seriously though, I am venting the other way. I would like to see the results from the investigation and let it play out without all of us beating the heck out of each other and ourselves. While I agree that they were outside of SOP, I think that the general public knows this is not the norm and that we are professionals. It just irks me though - When Sully was getting good attention, many were complaining. Now we are getting the wrong kind of attention and the comlaining keeps going. If we want to discuss this, let's do it in a manner that is reflective of our training and education. That's all.
Have a great night.
Do you recall the sound clip that was going around the net right after 911? The one with the Captain announcing what type of guns he and the crew were carrying? Dang that was funny. I would love to vent on the PA sometime...... but of course I won't.
Seriously though, I am venting the other way. I would like to see the results from the investigation and let it play out without all of us beating the heck out of each other and ourselves. While I agree that they were outside of SOP, I think that the general public knows this is not the norm and that we are professionals. It just irks me though - When Sully was getting good attention, many were complaining. Now we are getting the wrong kind of attention and the comlaining keeps going. If we want to discuss this, let's do it in a manner that is reflective of our training and education. That's all.
Have a great night.
10-26-2009, 11:51 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by satchip
These guys had the extreme misfortune to have it happen near their destination.
10-27-2009, 12:15 AM
#105
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by captjns
It was not a misfortune, or fotuitous event that lead this incident. It was the crews choice to violate company SOPs and FARs, fly over one hour without radio communications, and betray the trust of the passengers, cabin crew, and the company that employed them.
But consider this...
I have jump seated a number of times and seen both CA and FO reading the latest best seller. Had those books been enthralling enough, those crews could have overflown their destination too. Also, I have flown with CAs who have read, listened to their Ipods, or other things not related to flying.
For those of you who have ever done anything other than fly the plane, I suggest you have no room to condemn. The only difference between this crew and you is they got caught.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
For the record, I hold no rocks.
10-27-2009, 02:34 AM
#107
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by captjns
It was not a misfortune, or fotuitous event that lead this incident. It was the crews choice to violate company SOPs and FARs, fly over one hour without radio communications, and betray the trust of the passengers, cabin crew, and the company that employed them.
Looks like these guys screwed up. Now how bout' that taxiway landing? I'd like to know a lot more about what went on there.
10-27-2009, 02:42 AM
#108
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
ACARS on NW 188?
EXCLUSIVE: NORTHWEST FLIGHT 188: CRUCIAL COMMUNICATION DEVICE TURNED OFF?
The Enterprise Report has learned exclusively that a crucial air-to-ground communications system on Northwest Flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis that overshot the airport by over a hundred miles and was out of contact with FAA air traffic control for over an hour, was turned off or disabled for some unknown reason.
Aviation sources familiar with the device, known as "ACARS", confirm that the only way the device would not be operating is for the pilots to turn it off from the cockpit or for it to have failed to operate properly during the flight.
The Enterprise Report has obtained exclusive ACARS data from the aircraft involved in Flight 188 earlier that same day. The data confirms that the ACARS system was functioning properly throughout the day on multiple flights proceeding the departure from San Diego to Minneapolis later that same day.
Mysteriously the ACARS system transmitted no data during the entire flight from San Diego to Minneapolis as Flight 188.
The communication system known as "ACARS" is short for "Aircraft Addressing and Communication Reporting System". The unit is an on-board communication device that transmits data to and from the aircraft. The pilots can also send and receive text messages to and from the airplane via the device.
According to published reports the Airbus A320 and its two pilots now identified as Captain Timothy Cheney and First Officer Richard Cole did not respond to numerous communication attempts for over an hour during the flight from FAA air traffic controllers and others. Those attempts included attempts to communicate via the ACARS system.
Data from the Northwest Airlines Airbus A320 identified as N374NW can be seen below. The data shows the aircraft's ACARS flight communication system was operating normally on earlier flights that same day.
The flight landed safely and the pilots were interviewed and claimed they were 'having a heated discussion" and "lost situational awareness" during the flight. The NTBS is investigating the case and the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder have been flown to Washington, DC. The pilots themselves have not yet been interviewed by the NTSB, although they were interviewed by FBI, Airport Police and TSA officials upon arrival that night.
The Enterprise Report has learned exclusively that a crucial air-to-ground communications system on Northwest Flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis that overshot the airport by over a hundred miles and was out of contact with FAA air traffic control for over an hour, was turned off or disabled for some unknown reason.
Aviation sources familiar with the device, known as "ACARS", confirm that the only way the device would not be operating is for the pilots to turn it off from the cockpit or for it to have failed to operate properly during the flight.
The Enterprise Report has obtained exclusive ACARS data from the aircraft involved in Flight 188 earlier that same day. The data confirms that the ACARS system was functioning properly throughout the day on multiple flights proceeding the departure from San Diego to Minneapolis later that same day.
Mysteriously the ACARS system transmitted no data during the entire flight from San Diego to Minneapolis as Flight 188.
The communication system known as "ACARS" is short for "Aircraft Addressing and Communication Reporting System". The unit is an on-board communication device that transmits data to and from the aircraft. The pilots can also send and receive text messages to and from the airplane via the device.
According to published reports the Airbus A320 and its two pilots now identified as Captain Timothy Cheney and First Officer Richard Cole did not respond to numerous communication attempts for over an hour during the flight from FAA air traffic controllers and others. Those attempts included attempts to communicate via the ACARS system.
Data from the Northwest Airlines Airbus A320 identified as N374NW can be seen below. The data shows the aircraft's ACARS flight communication system was operating normally on earlier flights that same day.
The flight landed safely and the pilots were interviewed and claimed they were 'having a heated discussion" and "lost situational awareness" during the flight. The NTBS is investigating the case and the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder have been flown to Washington, DC. The pilots themselves have not yet been interviewed by the NTSB, although they were interviewed by FBI, Airport Police and TSA officials upon arrival that night.
10-27-2009, 04:30 AM
#110
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Last night I got to thinking again about this situation, and about pilots in general. What I came up with was this: pilots are, for the most part "Type A" personality individuals; for the most part, they get satisfaction by flying a good airplane; they get additional gratification by having others witness said events, such as great landings, etc; pilots usually don't need the limelight, as their joy comes internally by how their flights were flown and managed; pilots can compartmentalize better than almost any other group of individuals, and can therefore perform their jobs with unerring accuracy.
It is with this attribute (compartmentalization) that I find these two guys guilty. I'm saying that many of us are "guilty" of disregarding certain policies, such as reading USA Today or checking something on our laptop, while performing our cockpit duties. When we do that, we still manage to perform instrument scans, talk on the radio, type into the ACARS system, and in general, perform the multitude of functions that are required of us. However, in the case of these two guys, they seemed to compartmentalize 180 degrees out of phase. That is, they seemed to completely disregard their cockpit duties, while being engrossed in their computers. They didn't (at least in my mind) perform any of the duties that they were getting paid for at the time. Instead they completely removed themselves from their primary roles. How can anyone justify their mistake.
I don't hate them. I don't know them. I feel very sorry for them. But I cannot condone what they did. As for giving this profession another black eye, I believe they did that. This was not a case of pilot error. Oh, no. This was a case of two pilots who were not acting as pilots at all. Inexcusable.
JJ
It is with this attribute (compartmentalization) that I find these two guys guilty. I'm saying that many of us are "guilty" of disregarding certain policies, such as reading USA Today or checking something on our laptop, while performing our cockpit duties. When we do that, we still manage to perform instrument scans, talk on the radio, type into the ACARS system, and in general, perform the multitude of functions that are required of us. However, in the case of these two guys, they seemed to compartmentalize 180 degrees out of phase. That is, they seemed to completely disregard their cockpit duties, while being engrossed in their computers. They didn't (at least in my mind) perform any of the duties that they were getting paid for at the time. Instead they completely removed themselves from their primary roles. How can anyone justify their mistake.
I don't hate them. I don't know them. I feel very sorry for them. But I cannot condone what they did. As for giving this profession another black eye, I believe they did that. This was not a case of pilot error. Oh, no. This was a case of two pilots who were not acting as pilots at all. Inexcusable.
JJ
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