Facts - NTSB Re: NWA 188
10-27-2009, 06:20 AM
#121
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by captjns
It was not a misfortune, or fotuitous event that lead this incident. It was the crews choice to violate company SOPs and FARs, fly over one hour without radio communications, and betray the trust of the passengers, cabin crew, and the company that employed them.
10-27-2009, 06:24 AM
#122
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by captjns
What would you recommend the punishment befitting the infractionfor using computers, which happens to be a direct violation of a company SOP?
They admit that they were using their computers, which I grant was wrong. But, what if they had their computers out to go over new company procedures? What if they had them out to go over A-320 systems? I don't think they did in this case (they had them out to figure out the new bidding process).
But, let's not forget that it was just a few days ago that many of you condemned them because there was no way that they could have been discussing company policy for that long. Discussing the new bid process is more related to company policy than a lot of things I have seen being done on some airplanes.
New K Now
10-27-2009, 06:32 AM
#123
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by satchip
You sound more like a personal injury attorney than a pilot.
Hmmm... I guess you never really know who you are listening to! I hope the reporters trolling these boards realize that they don't know who they are quoting.
10-27-2009, 06:42 AM
#124
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,929
Originally Posted by newKnow
Once again, I'll qualify my statement by admitting that I know Rick (the FO). But, the more this thread progresses, the more I want to defend them. Mainly because many of you have switched your story on why you condemn them.
But, let's not forget that it was just a few days ago that many of you condemned them because there was no way that they could have been discussing company policy for that long. Discussing the new bid process is more related to company policy than a lot of things I have seen being done on some airplanes.
New K Now
New K Now
10-27-2009, 06:43 AM
#125
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,929
Originally Posted by ratsnrip
It occurred to me the other day when he refused to identify the company he flew for- he writes with the style that reminds me of lawyer "speak". That and the occasional reference to specific lawyers. Clarence Darrow, etc.
Hmmm... I guess you never really know who you are listening to! I hope the reporters trolling these boards realize that they don't know who they are quoting.
Hmmm... I guess you never really know who you are listening to! I hope the reporters trolling these boards realize that they don't know who they are quoting.
10-27-2009, 06:52 AM
#126
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
FWIW,
I think they had a manual leg in the FMS with a resulting white line that stretched on forever.
They aren't the first pilots to miss a frequency change, and they won't be the last. Don't know if they simply missed it, or if the controller waited too long to give it to them.
ACARS, not a 320 pilot but I do know that the ACARS chime is turned off during certain phases\times of flight for the 300 and I assume the same logic holds true for the newer airplane.
Guard. I believe it is likely they had it tuned but at a volume so low that they simply couldn't hear it.
They aren't the first pilots to lose SA and they won't be the last. Losing your SA is very insidious. Especially when you are convinced you still have it. And human perceptions of time, especially time we are spending in a given task aren't reliable. We may think we are doing something very frequently, but, an actual tape might indicate the exact opposite. How many times have all of us started something that will only take a couple of minutes then realized that we spent 10, 20, or 30 minutes on it (Just taking a quick look at APC is definitely an example for me)
Do they deserve time off? Definitely. Do they deserve to be fired for using a computer in the cockpit? Not in my opinion.
Would my opinion be different if they had a low fuel warning and tried to cover it up by pressing to the destination only to flame out versus landing at a closer airport. You betcha.
Would my opinion be different if they were using a computer, reading, soduki, etc, during the arrival? Or even just cruising below 10k. You betch.
But they weren't. They got into a discussion 5 miles above the earth. No doubt in my mind that they cross checked their altitude\aspd\engine instruments periodically. No doubt in my mind that they thought they knew where they were.
As best as I can determine from the statements in the press and the video of the FO, they fessed up immediately. Didn't try to come up with some BS story of an aircraft malfunction. Requested to be tested for drugs/alcohol.
Probably as upset with their own performance as some on this board are.
I think they had a manual leg in the FMS with a resulting white line that stretched on forever.
They aren't the first pilots to miss a frequency change, and they won't be the last. Don't know if they simply missed it, or if the controller waited too long to give it to them.
ACARS, not a 320 pilot but I do know that the ACARS chime is turned off during certain phases\times of flight for the 300 and I assume the same logic holds true for the newer airplane.
Guard. I believe it is likely they had it tuned but at a volume so low that they simply couldn't hear it.
They aren't the first pilots to lose SA and they won't be the last. Losing your SA is very insidious. Especially when you are convinced you still have it. And human perceptions of time, especially time we are spending in a given task aren't reliable. We may think we are doing something very frequently, but, an actual tape might indicate the exact opposite. How many times have all of us started something that will only take a couple of minutes then realized that we spent 10, 20, or 30 minutes on it (Just taking a quick look at APC is definitely an example for me)
Do they deserve time off? Definitely. Do they deserve to be fired for using a computer in the cockpit? Not in my opinion.
Would my opinion be different if they had a low fuel warning and tried to cover it up by pressing to the destination only to flame out versus landing at a closer airport. You betcha.
Would my opinion be different if they were using a computer, reading, soduki, etc, during the arrival? Or even just cruising below 10k. You betch.
But they weren't. They got into a discussion 5 miles above the earth. No doubt in my mind that they cross checked their altitude\aspd\engine instruments periodically. No doubt in my mind that they thought they knew where they were.
As best as I can determine from the statements in the press and the video of the FO, they fessed up immediately. Didn't try to come up with some BS story of an aircraft malfunction. Requested to be tested for drugs/alcohol.
Probably as upset with their own performance as some on this board are.
10-27-2009, 07:09 AM
#127
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by kronan
ACARS, not a 320 pilot but I do know that the ACARS chime is turned off during certain phases\times of flight for the 300 and I assume the same logic holds true for the newer airplane.
.
10-27-2009, 07:19 AM
#129
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Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
In our bus's there is no chime with the ACARS. You only get a message on the ecam that flashes "company message"
10-27-2009, 07:23 AM
#130
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
How far have we fallen as professional pilots where you can even start to defend these two weakest links? You want to have your laptops out discussing a new bidding system? Fine. But to lose all sa, completely lost in your own world at 370 while doing it, not fine. Come on guys, unless these two were sleeping, which I still believe they were, the only responsibility they should have from now on should be deciding who does the fries and who does the burgers.
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