Facts - NTSB Re: NWA 188
10-27-2009, 01:20 PM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,929
Originally Posted by Wht Rabit
Just saw that the FAA revoked both of their licenses effective immediately.
Are they going to have any ground for an appeal?
Are they going to have any ground for an appeal?
Even carriers overseas are becoming more savy and requesting pilot records from the aviation agencies as part of the employment application process.
10-27-2009, 02:15 PM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 348
I have to agree with you here. Unfortunately, I also see why they have to be ceremonially fired. The public is like an angry mob on this one. You have to fire them, or your airline, and all airlines, will suffer the bad taste left from this incident for a lot longer than it will anyway.
I think you could put these two guys back on the line tomorrow, and they would be the least likely crew to become distracted, ever.
Complacency and boredom are insidious, evil foes that we all have to deal with in various degrees and capacities with this job. This is an unfortunate display of exactly that.
What we all need to be talking about here is what can be done to help prevent this in the future, and not what kind of rope do we use to hang these two.
I think you could put these two guys back on the line tomorrow, and they would be the least likely crew to become distracted, ever.
Complacency and boredom are insidious, evil foes that we all have to deal with in various degrees and capacities with this job. This is an unfortunate display of exactly that.
What we all need to be talking about here is what can be done to help prevent this in the future, and not what kind of rope do we use to hang these two.
Originally Posted by kronan
FWIW,
I think they had a manual leg in the FMS with a resulting white line that stretched on forever.
They aren't the first pilots to miss a frequency change, and they won't be the last. Don't know if they simply missed it, or if the controller waited too long to give it to them.
ACARS, not a 320 pilot but I do know that the ACARS chime is turned off during certain phases\times of flight for the 300 and I assume the same logic holds true for the newer airplane.
Guard. I believe it is likely they had it tuned but at a volume so low that they simply couldn't hear it.
They aren't the first pilots to lose SA and they won't be the last. Losing your SA is very insidious. Especially when you are convinced you still have it. And human perceptions of time, especially time we are spending in a given task aren't reliable. We may think we are doing something very frequently, but, an actual tape might indicate the exact opposite. How many times have all of us started something that will only take a couple of minutes then realized that we spent 10, 20, or 30 minutes on it (Just taking a quick look at APC is definitely an example for me)
Do they deserve time off? Definitely. Do they deserve to be fired for using a computer in the cockpit? Not in my opinion.
Would my opinion be different if they had a low fuel warning and tried to cover it up by pressing to the destination only to flame out versus landing at a closer airport. You betcha.
Would my opinion be different if they were using a computer, reading, soduki, etc, during the arrival? Or even just cruising below 10k. You betch.
But they weren't. They got into a discussion 5 miles above the earth. No doubt in my mind that they cross checked their altitude\aspd\engine instruments periodically. No doubt in my mind that they thought they knew where they were.
As best as I can determine from the statements in the press and the video of the FO, they fessed up immediately. Didn't try to come up with some BS story of an aircraft malfunction. Requested to be tested for drugs/alcohol.
Probably as upset with their own performance as some on this board are.
I think they had a manual leg in the FMS with a resulting white line that stretched on forever.
They aren't the first pilots to miss a frequency change, and they won't be the last. Don't know if they simply missed it, or if the controller waited too long to give it to them.
ACARS, not a 320 pilot but I do know that the ACARS chime is turned off during certain phases\times of flight for the 300 and I assume the same logic holds true for the newer airplane.
Guard. I believe it is likely they had it tuned but at a volume so low that they simply couldn't hear it.
They aren't the first pilots to lose SA and they won't be the last. Losing your SA is very insidious. Especially when you are convinced you still have it. And human perceptions of time, especially time we are spending in a given task aren't reliable. We may think we are doing something very frequently, but, an actual tape might indicate the exact opposite. How many times have all of us started something that will only take a couple of minutes then realized that we spent 10, 20, or 30 minutes on it (Just taking a quick look at APC is definitely an example for me)
Do they deserve time off? Definitely. Do they deserve to be fired for using a computer in the cockpit? Not in my opinion.
Would my opinion be different if they had a low fuel warning and tried to cover it up by pressing to the destination only to flame out versus landing at a closer airport. You betcha.
Would my opinion be different if they were using a computer, reading, soduki, etc, during the arrival? Or even just cruising below 10k. You betch.
But they weren't. They got into a discussion 5 miles above the earth. No doubt in my mind that they cross checked their altitude\aspd\engine instruments periodically. No doubt in my mind that they thought they knew where they were.
As best as I can determine from the statements in the press and the video of the FO, they fessed up immediately. Didn't try to come up with some BS story of an aircraft malfunction. Requested to be tested for drugs/alcohol.
Probably as upset with their own performance as some on this board are.
10-27-2009, 02:35 PM
#145
HOSED BY PBS AGAIN
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,713
What's interesting is that the "experts" thought they had fallen asleep....which they hadn't. So, the "experts" were WRONG. Doesn't make the situation any better, but so much for "expert theory", which is what most people are now going on. So, if we can't do ANYTHING in the cockpit anymore, what's to keep sheer BOREDOM from setting in, and what's going to keep us occupied and ALERT? A 6.5 hour transcontinental is going to be one boring ride, especially if the two folks up front don't get along or have zip in common. And this career continues on its downhill path. 
10-27-2009, 02:39 PM
#146
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
the big problem here is that they lost they license because the media got ahold of this. There are other events that happen that nothing happens because its covered under ASAP. this is a slippery slope and the FAA and the companies didnt follow protocol with the steps that should have been covered first. NOTE: I'm not saying they should or they shouldnt get fired but pulling they're tickets is a bit extreme imho.
On another note, Freaking abc news is about to do a story on whether or not pilots have enough to do anymore?
i wish they'd take a ride with me one day while i fly 5 legs a day in my DC9 
On another note, Freaking abc news is about to do a story on whether or not pilots have enough to do anymore?
i wish they'd take a ride with me one day while i fly 5 legs a day in my DC9
10-27-2009, 02:43 PM
#147
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
What's interesting is that the "experts" thought they had fallen asleep....which they hadn't. So, the "experts" were WRONG. Doesn't make the situation any better, but so much for "expert theory", which is what most people are now going on. So, if we can't do ANYTHING in the cockpit anymore, what's to keep sheer BOREDOM from setting in, and what's going to keep us occupied and ALERT? A 6.5 hour transcontinental is going to be one boring ride, especially if the two folks up front don't get along or have zip in common. And this career continues on its downhill path.
Just goes to show you what the so called "experts" know. These are the same GA yahoos who come on and give expert advice on airline flying that they know nothing about. I love to see a CFI/CFII who has flown nothing larger then a PA44 give advice on how to handle an emergency situation.
10-27-2009, 02:44 PM
#148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: crj-200 FO
Posts: 479
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
On another note, Freaking abc news is about to do a story on whether or not pilots have enough to do anymore?
10-27-2009, 03:14 PM
#149
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
I love to see a CFI/CFII who has flown nothing larger then a PA44 give advice on how to handle an emergency situation.
USMCFLYR
10-27-2009, 03:29 PM
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
This story still doesn't make much sense. Actually the sleeping would have been easier to understand. After a 4 hour flight the last thing you should be doing is getting in heated conversations 100 miles out from your destination and then proceed to overfly it for 150 miles. That is a total of 250 miles of negligence. Their story is almost an impossibility unless they fell asleep. But then again I don't have 20000 hours, maybe by that point I will be susceptible complacency as well.
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