aa73

Hey guys, give it up... most AE guys are cool and I have several friends there but there will always be those few senior guys who constantly think they're being shafted and that's why you see them being so defensive here. So only 35 come over in June, and then 100% of AA furloughees need to be recalled first. It could've been a LOT worse.

I will say that, for the most part, you guys will be treated professionally... but if you end up with an ex FB who got hassled at AE, well, he/she probably will not be so accommodating, either. Karma's a beeotch.

Beagle Pilot

"Many AA flowbacks" failed to qualify? Do you have an exact number of how many APA pilots didn't hack it? How many had their tickets pulled or were given 709 rides? How many were fired for incompetence?

So you are asserting that 51% of the flowbacks, over 250, were mistreated. Is this correct? Do you have any facts to back this up such as instances of mistreatment other than the check airman example previously given? Does hurting an APA pilot's feelings count as mistreatment or does it take something more substantial such as unprofessional conduct? If the latter, please provide an example. You don't have to provide 251 examples, just half a dozen will do.

Beagle Pilot

Agreed on all points except I'd remove the word "senior". Most of those responding with accusations are very junior on the APA seniority list. Many of those responding on the AE side are mid-level or more junior since the latter actually had to fly with the flow backs.

No dispute here either. What I object to is the characterization that "all" or "the majority" of the flowbacks were mistreated and that this perception gives certain narrow-minded Eagle haters justification to mistreat "all" or "the majority" of flow thrus to AA. BTW, you'll never see me other there so no payback there, justified or unjustified!

You and I both know the 10% rule applies both here and everywhere.

Beagle Pilot

Thanks for the clarification of the TWA numbers. It appears the APA didn't screw over the TWA pilots quite as badly as some TWA'ers have previously attempted to characterize it.

In your opinion. Please back it up with some facts.

How does this ruling supersede seniority?

How can this ruling violate the APA CBA? Didn't the APA agree to binding arbitration? This isn't USAirways. Most of our pilots understand what "binding arbitration" means. Please explain your reasoning.

pipe

I characterize it as ten years on furlough. You take it how you like.


PIPE

Flyingdude

Oh, you mean like the 500 or so junior American pilots who took captain positions at Eagle out of senority order. Yeah, that was fair. You guys signed the Letter 3 agreement and benefitted from it. Now it does not benefit you, therefore you don't like it. Sounds like an American pilot, he wants the cake and the ability to eat it too, to the exclusion of everyone else.

BTW, if Eagle guys are newhires, tell me how they have senority numbers? This was part of the agreement that many furloughed American pilots took advantage of when they needed a job, but now it is unfair?

Beagle Pilot

What the heck are you talking about? Are you saying the APA screwed up when they implemented Letter 3/Supplement W to send their pilots to Eagle?

Benefited? Are you even a member of either union? If so, then you'ld know that only 155 Eagle pilots flowed to AA but over 500 flowed back to Eagle. Over 450 AA FOs flew as Eagle Captains for years until the letter expired in May 2008. APA had the option to negotiate a renewal of the Letter to keep their pilots in the left seats of Eagle jets, but declined to do so.

APA also agreed to binding arbitration on this grievance rather than negotiate a solution. Now they are whining about the results like a gaggle of Easties. Please explain in detail why you have a problem with their decision and the results.

Not following you. What does this have to do with the arbitrated settlement?

Flyingdude

You missed the entire point, I was defending the Eagle guys. I was saying that the American guys benefitted from the flow back by giving them captain jobs when they would have had no job at all. You had essential Eagle newhires flying as captains, therefore it worked out great for those guys and bad for Eagle. Yet now that some of the Eagle guys with American numbers are flowing up, the American guys are complaining. They want their cake and eat it too.

My response was to the American guy who was complaining about Eagle guys with senority numbers at American, claiming that they are nothing more than newhires. Therefore, I stated the FACT that you can not be a newhire if you already have a senority number.

B757200ER

There wasn't ever 500 flow-backs, that is more over-estimating and exaggeration by your side. The highest number of AA flow-backs at AMR Eagle was just under 300, and herein lies the problem: The Flow-Thru agreement was designed for Eagle pilots to flow up to AA, but in severe circumstances, such as a 3,000 pilot furlough from AA, there was a provision to allow AA furloughees to flow-BACK to AMR Eagle. Not the way it was designed, but it was allowed under the 4-part agreement.

Now, regarding seniority numbers, you can't excercise them until you get HIRED at AA, which cannot occur until all AA pilots previuously furloughed are recalled. That hasn't happened, and you all know that hiring 300 Eagle pilots prior to AA furloughees being recalled is dead wrong, regardless of what a senile arbitrator rules.

I was hired by TWA---Trans World Airlines; then acquired by AA. Therefore, your 'cake' statement doesn't apply. I've been furloughed almost 7 years.

Beagle Pilot

Incorrect, but given your previous statements, understandable.

Yes, there were over 500 flow-backs. Part of the discrepancy comes in from the fact that almost a hundred of them never actually flew at Eagle. They took the flow-back seat, then went on MLOA. This allowed them to stay in the military for 10 years; 5 years of MLOA at Eagle, take a recall to AA then another 5 years of MLOA for military retirement before returning to what may become a pension-less airline job.

Another part of the discrepancy is that you are viewing this entire matter through the narrow lens of you and T-Way. Over 100 AA pilots flowed back to Eagle shortly after 9/11 (116 pilots IIRC). Only about a dozen remained by the the massive amounts of AA flowbacks, mostly furloughed T-Way pilots, were allowed flowback following the APA $660M concession in 2003.

This easily accounts for the difference between assertion that "under 300" (still wrong, since we had about 450 on the property at one time) and my, more truthful, assertion that over 500 pilots flowed back to Eagle.

Sorry to hear of your personal problems, but this proves a good point: I've been an active member of the Allied Pilots Association longer than you: 1991-1997. Presently I've been an ALPA volunteer since 1997.