AMR-APA scope proposals
#1
AMR-APA scope proposals
Recently the subject of where AMR and APA were at regarding scope was broached in a discussion. I did a websearch but could only come up with the company perspective. It appears the APA has chosen to hide their proposals behind a membership only screen. The APAnegotiations.com website used to be public, but now it isn´t. The company´s website is still open to the public:
American Airlines Negotiations
//www.aanegotiations.com/forTheRecord062609.asp
Does anyone know why the APA chose to remove their website from public view? Is it fear of ridicule or something else?
American Airlines Negotiations
//www.aanegotiations.com/forTheRecord062609.asp
Does anyone know why the APA chose to remove their website from public view? Is it fear of ridicule or something else?
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Recently the subject of where AMR and APA were at regarding scope was broached in a discussion. I did a websearch but could only come up with the company perspective. It appears the APA has chosen to hide their proposals behind a membership only screen. The APAnegotiations.com website used to be public, but now it isn´t. The company´s website is still open to the public:
American Airlines Negotiations
//www.aanegotiations.com/forTheRecord062609.asp
Does anyone know why the APA chose to remove their website from public view? Is it fear of ridicule or something else?
American Airlines Negotiations
//www.aanegotiations.com/forTheRecord062609.asp
Does anyone know why the APA chose to remove their website from public view? Is it fear of ridicule or something else?
I'm also not an American Airlines pilot, and like you, I don't have info about how much of their own flying they want to retain. The logical answer would seem to be: all of it. I can only hope they make progress in that regard.
#3
Perhaps they see no value in negotiating in public? But, as you say, it appears the info is available to the people they are accountable to: their members.
I'm also not an American Airlines pilot, and like you, I don't have info about how much of their own flying they want to retain. The logical answer would seem to be: all of it. I can only hope they make progress in that regard.
I'm also not an American Airlines pilot, and like you, I don't have info about how much of their own flying they want to retain. The logical answer would seem to be: all of it. I can only hope they make progress in that regard.
........+1
#4
I completely agree with the premise about not negotiating in public. What I was referring to was previously public statements about the APA´s general position which are now completely hidden from view. There´s a difference.
In my own union we have those who want our union to negotiate in public. You and I agree this is a bad idea. OTOH, having our union publish statements about our union´s position is a good idea. I was curious why the APA has chosen to withdraw completely from publicizing their position.
In my own union we have those who want our union to negotiate in public. You and I agree this is a bad idea. OTOH, having our union publish statements about our union´s position is a good idea. I was curious why the APA has chosen to withdraw completely from publicizing their position.
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I completely agree with the premise about not negotiating in public. What I was referring to was previously public statements about the APA´s general position which are now completely hidden from view. There´s a difference.
In my own union we have those who want our union to negotiate in public. You and I agree this is a bad idea. OTOH, having our union publish statements about our union´s position is a good idea. I was curious why the APA has chosen to withdraw completely from publicizing their position.
In my own union we have those who want our union to negotiate in public. You and I agree this is a bad idea. OTOH, having our union publish statements about our union´s position is a good idea. I was curious why the APA has chosen to withdraw completely from publicizing their position.
Nobody likes to leave a cute little Beagle on the outside looking in, but no matter how much it tugs at the heart, everyone has their place. If you want to be "in" to discuss, or be informed about, APA's scope proposal, I guess you should be in APA. Or in AMR management.
My apology if this isn't the answer you're looking for. If it makes you feel any better: they won't tell me their position either. Because...I'm part of the public.
#7
Here is the last thing I have on their Scope proposal. There is no reason to think they've altered their position from June 2008.
AMR Scope Proposal to APA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Negotiations Update - Wednesday, June 11, 2008
Today, management presented APA with a proposal on Section 1 of the contract, Scope.
Under management's Scope proposal, AMR would be permitted to operate jet aircraft of up to 76 seats at commuter carriers, codeshare with other airlines both domestically and internationally with dramatically reduced restrictions, and charter other operator aircraft in order to carry passenger bags. Additionally, the cockpit crewmember floor of 7300 pilots required for the company to exercise the Commuter Exception in the contract would be deleted.
Bargaining Breakdown -- SCOPE
APA Communications Committee: There is little doubt that one of the most important contract issues to pilots is scope. Similar to our compensation, scope is a contractual area where we have seen a steady and unrelenting diminishment. Our scope clause used to be simple: “All flying done by or on behalf of the company will be performed by pilots on the American Airlines seniority list.” Simple and easy to understand. Any flying done for AMR, we do it -- period. That’s not the case anymore…
The years have produced exception after exception. We now have a Commuter Air Carrier exception, a Fixed Base Operator exception, a Hawaiian Inter-Island exception, an Air Freight exception, a Domestic Codeshare exception, and an International Codeshare exception -- a total of 106 paragraphs of contractual scope language. As it relates to scope, everywhere it says, “exception,” you can substitute, “lost flying opportunity.” The exceptions have been won by the management through old-fashioned leverage, industry forces and our own lack of resolve and foresight. Regardless of how they were created, no scope exception has ever benefited the pilot group.
We have said from the inception of the current negotiations that this contract would be about restoration -- not just restoration in terms of pay, but restoration of our profession. A major piece in the restoration of our profession is the restoration of scope. Our scope proposal goes back to the original design and replaces all the exceptions and language with a simple statement.
APA Scope Proposal: All flying performed on behalf of the company or an affiliate shall be performed by pilots on the American Airlines seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
While our scope goal is restoration, AMR’s goal goes far beyond further eroding our scope protections to complete decimation of them.
AMR Scope Proposal:
--Allow affiliates (AE) to operate Embraer 170 class aircraft (this passenger jet would have a two-class configuration and 76 seats)
--Eliminate “international baseline” scope protection (would allow AMR unrestricted outsourcing of AA pilot jobs to international carriers through ventures like the proposed virtual merger between AA/BA/IB).
--Eliminate 7,300 cockpit crewmember floor protection of the commuter exception (theoretically, AA could then operate with zero pilots on the AA seniority list).
--Eliminate scope protections on “non-owned” commuter carriers designed to feed mainline hub operations (would allow hub-to-hub flying and allow increased point-to-point flying for AMR by a “non-owned” commuters).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Negotiations Update - Wednesday, June 11, 2008
Today, management presented APA with a proposal on Section 1 of the contract, Scope.
Under management's Scope proposal, AMR would be permitted to operate jet aircraft of up to 76 seats at commuter carriers, codeshare with other airlines both domestically and internationally with dramatically reduced restrictions, and charter other operator aircraft in order to carry passenger bags. Additionally, the cockpit crewmember floor of 7300 pilots required for the company to exercise the Commuter Exception in the contract would be deleted.
Bargaining Breakdown -- SCOPE
APA Communications Committee: There is little doubt that one of the most important contract issues to pilots is scope. Similar to our compensation, scope is a contractual area where we have seen a steady and unrelenting diminishment. Our scope clause used to be simple: “All flying done by or on behalf of the company will be performed by pilots on the American Airlines seniority list.” Simple and easy to understand. Any flying done for AMR, we do it -- period. That’s not the case anymore…
The years have produced exception after exception. We now have a Commuter Air Carrier exception, a Fixed Base Operator exception, a Hawaiian Inter-Island exception, an Air Freight exception, a Domestic Codeshare exception, and an International Codeshare exception -- a total of 106 paragraphs of contractual scope language. As it relates to scope, everywhere it says, “exception,” you can substitute, “lost flying opportunity.” The exceptions have been won by the management through old-fashioned leverage, industry forces and our own lack of resolve and foresight. Regardless of how they were created, no scope exception has ever benefited the pilot group.
We have said from the inception of the current negotiations that this contract would be about restoration -- not just restoration in terms of pay, but restoration of our profession. A major piece in the restoration of our profession is the restoration of scope. Our scope proposal goes back to the original design and replaces all the exceptions and language with a simple statement.
APA Scope Proposal: All flying performed on behalf of the company or an affiliate shall be performed by pilots on the American Airlines seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
While our scope goal is restoration, AMR’s goal goes far beyond further eroding our scope protections to complete decimation of them.
AMR Scope Proposal:
--Allow affiliates (AE) to operate Embraer 170 class aircraft (this passenger jet would have a two-class configuration and 76 seats)
--Eliminate “international baseline” scope protection (would allow AMR unrestricted outsourcing of AA pilot jobs to international carriers through ventures like the proposed virtual merger between AA/BA/IB).
--Eliminate 7,300 cockpit crewmember floor protection of the commuter exception (theoretically, AA could then operate with zero pilots on the AA seniority list).
--Eliminate scope protections on “non-owned” commuter carriers designed to feed mainline hub operations (would allow hub-to-hub flying and allow increased point-to-point flying for AMR by a “non-owned” commuters).
#8
I think the problem you're not completely seeing here is that... you're also the public, as far as the APA goes. This isn't an APA vs. ALPA thing: I also think we shouldn't discuss our scope position with any other carrier, ALPA or otherwise. As it were, the RJDC did sue us, and I think there is currently a requirement to "confer". So confer we must. In APA's case, they're free from that burden.
Nobody likes to leave a cute little Beagle on the outside looking in, but no matter how much it tugs at the heart, everyone has their place. If you want to be "in" to discuss, or be informed about, APA's scope proposal, I guess you should be in APA. Or in AMR management.
My apology if this isn't the answer you're looking for. If it makes you feel any better: they won't tell me their position either. Because...I'm part of the public.
Nobody likes to leave a cute little Beagle on the outside looking in, but no matter how much it tugs at the heart, everyone has their place. If you want to be "in" to discuss, or be informed about, APA's scope proposal, I guess you should be in APA. Or in AMR management.
My apology if this isn't the answer you're looking for. If it makes you feel any better: they won't tell me their position either. Because...I'm part of the public.
AA
#9
Lifer
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: MD80 CA
Posts: 176
Beagle, you may find more of a connection with your peers on the regional forums vs. major. APA is a big boy union that looks out for AA pilots, period. APA is not a social club.
#10
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