Thanks for finding the link. Thats it..I've had it with ALPA.

The 1500 hr rule would have been the single most airline pilot friendly rule we would have seen in DECADES. What does ALPA do....roll around with the other side and try to bring it down. Their excuse: Emirates is gonna take the house down if we don't do this! (They are going to use the 500hr deal to negotiate with the govt. to refuse further landing slots to Emirates). What absolute BS. ALPA will sign off on the 500hr deal and then still could lose the battle to Emirates. (Emirates will win if they have better lobbyists than us in DC...and I think they do). Reminds me of all the paycuts we took over the years with ALPA blessings. Reminds me of all the times ALPA asked: what are you willing to give up for this/that/regaining your pay: not a damn thing!!

Over the last few years ALPA has hurt our career more than help it. Retirement age went to 65. Now, even many folks who wants to retire can't, due to retirement benefits and such. Now ALPA wants to bring down the 1500 proposal? You got to be f'n kidding me. The 1500 hr is a way ALPA could redeem itself from the recent mistakes. If ALPA favours bringing it down, ALPA is nailing the final nail to it's coffin. I don't want to hear any BS excuses like Emirates and it's landing rights. That is a separate issue ALPA must deal with.

We want leadership with a spine to support our careers. If DPA can provide it, I'll gladly support it.

 

I have flown with Tim C. numerous times, and with his previous history with nwa,I find this to be extremely unlikley.

 

That is not true, you just made that up.

 

You are aware that they can do all of these rule changes without taking one iota of our input correct?

Of course we all want 1500 hrs, but as I have said, there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. The HND slots were also leverage against the US military base in Okinawa. Ugly truth. If the ATA was the only one lobbying we would be looking at no changes to this rule and the ability to fly 10 or more hrs with little to no change in the rest requirements. The sad fact is more blood will probably have to be spilled to get what you want. The rule makers ears are still being bent by the money.

We complain about ALPA this ALPA that, but everyone forgets that this industry as a whole has had negative margins and the CH11 era since Q2 2001. With the margins even at a nominal 7-8% restoration will be a tall challenge. If you really want change, go pester your congressperson or senator to do away with or modify the RLA. Only then would you see a significant deviation for the current trends.

 

I still don't know what "restoration" means, but good grief man, you are really starting to sound like a koolaid infused negotiator. Look.. the bills were paid in bankruptcy. Period. Stop trying to manage everyone's expectations like you are working for the other side. It's really depressing.

 

After returning to this thread to check in, it is apparent the fear that DPA might be gaining traction and rooting itself is quite evident.

Emotions are flowing out in lots of these posts.

I was surprised at slow and alpa's recent posts......but sailing? Really!

"Heavily backed by the company and the 4th floor."

This is hearsay. Document it. Provide proof.

"a few specific names mentioned"

Provide positions held by those in the company since you can not provide names on this forum.

"A huge management wet dream"

Perhaps you are right. Probably not though. The likely scenario of the glasnost/birthday party era with LM coming to a close more than likely would induce night sweats as opposed to nocturnal emissions.

You have heard of the saying keep your friends close but your enemies even closer, right? Losing ALPA to DPA changes that for the co. There goes that very close relationship replaced with an unknown.

Remember.....

This is all about one thing. It is just business. Company's need to keep their costs low, profit high. They are not concerned with retirement, saving for college, medical, food, clothing, etc. that employees are preoccupied with.

Companies are focused on their bottom lines, as they should be. Labor needs to concentrate on their business and that would be how they are going to provide for their families (see above list). Is ALPA helping to accomplish this?

Are they listening to their customers? Are they representing our wants and needs i.e. 1500/65/9hrs/2012/scope? Or...are they more focused on self preservation and their own nests that they are feathering in Herndon?

In fact, if it were the intention of the company to foster and nourish the DPA, then why have they not given permission for information tables to be set up in lounges?

 

Yes...they can pass these rule changes without any input from us...agreed. That is why I think we may not have much influence in the Emirates slot restrictions issue. US military bases in UAE and Emirates landing slots in the US go hand in hand. These are big political issues which is bigger than ALPA, 1500 hr rule etc. But...us giving away the farm (1500 hr to 500 hrs) to try to influence that is very short-sighted and a lose-lose proposition in my opinion. We may not even change the outcome. We need to fight tooth and nail to get 1500hr rule etched in stone....that is something we might be able to influence.

Everything in the financial market follows supply and demand. We have all heard it a hundred times. From the stock market to pilot pay...it all follows supply and demand. Doctors have artificially curbed supply (good for them) by various means in this country and they have very good pricing power in the market. This is our opportunity to curb supply, drive up demand and regain pricing control. I don't want the union to botch this up. I am hesitantly but willing to forgive them over past scope, retirement age failures if they can do this without screwing up. The Buffalo crash in many ways set the stage for this. Don't screw this up...period. It is way bigger than Emirates.

 

My Gosh T;

I do not work for either side. Heck the MEC probably does not like my stance on a lot of issues either. I am just stating that just because we want something does not mean we are going to get it. Margins have been horrible, and until last quarter basically non-existent since 2001. With the law on their side, management does not need to do jack squat and they know it. APA's head butting with AMR has proven that. (I want APA and UALALPA to be successful, because simply it means that we have less uncharted ground to cover)

 

Wow. Acl, I don't know when you were hired, and I guess it does not matter, but I am guessing after C2K and BK.

It boils down to this. Lets say UCAL obtains an A seat rate of $1.503 per hour/per seat at the 12 year level. I use this scenario since a vast majority of A's at DAL are 12yr and above.

Would you settle for less? Do you believe we are worth less than that, or, are we worth more than that? If they prevail and attain that rate, should we pattern bargain off that?

 

Carl, I know it's been a long time since you lowered yourself to fly domestic, but a 757 usually blocks 5+30 from LA to JFK and about 6+30 back. Now I know I am just an ignorant hick, but when I use my fingers and toes, that comes out to 12 hours. Maybe the whale can make up that three hours coast to coast but .80 just ain't gonna work in 9 hours.

You are correct that the rules would allow a two man crew to go Eastbound into Europe. It's just they can't come back Westbound and be legal. Now maybe we can start a program where we hire pilots in Europe to do one leg back to the States and then fire them, but that seems a little problematic.

I know a guy who was on the ARC and their goal was to use science to make these rules and not hunches, either by management or pilots. The science points to the fact that if you start out at a normal time in the morning that people usually get up and get moving, it is safe to work a slightly longer day than if you have to get up really early or stay awake to all hours of the night. Every pilot instinctively knows this to be true and the science clearly backs that up. So the science points to much tighter requirements in nearly every facet of our industry, but it also points to more flight time when you are working in the daylight hours like normal people do. Either you follow the science or you don't. Once the pilots break from the science, then you get into a straight economic, political, and lobbying fight with the ATA and they have much more money to spend and more people to spend it. If we go down that route we will get crushed.

So if you can point to scientific studies that prove your theories then forward that data to ALPA and let them know your concerns. If you just want to say "that's the way we always have done it" then you are going to lose. Every DC-9 and MD-88 pilot knows that it's much easier to fly 9 hours in two legs than it is to fly 8 hours in 6 legs. Maybe you haven't ever done that kind of flying or maybe a ninja captain has been away from it too long to remember. I have 5,000+ hours in the MD-88 and I remember all to well.

These rules are all backed by numerous scientific studies both in Europe and in the US. They will provide more strict requirements for almost all phases of our operation and will loosen up requirements for a small fraction of our operation.

What you and every other pilot needs to know is that pilots are staffed by block hours and not by days worked. If you get 80 hours in 10 days you would still fly the same number of hours as a pilot who flies 80 hours in 18 days. Getting more hours per day does not affect staffing. If Augmentation rules change then it can affect staffing but a careful examination of the rules shows that the flight times are based on your home base time. Everyone knows that if you take off at 10 am in Europe it's really the middle of the night body time and the rules take that into account and require augmentation.

If you haven't read the entire document you should. For instance, not many have noted that the rules limit reserve duty on short call to a maximum of 16 hours and reduce that if you are on call at odd hours in the morning or night. That would eliminate the 24 hour international short calls and limit duty on the back end of a long short call period. It takes a long time to read but you really should read the entire thing before passing judgment.